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  1. #21
    tonyhind86's Avatar
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    @Beallman which categories were they?

    Thanks for setting the record straight btw
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beallman View Post
    Lot's of speculation and hate flying around here, so I figured I'd drop in a set the record straight on a few things.

    But first off, some introductions... my name's Landon Beall, and I was actually a member of this past year's AVA Team. Specifically, I was involved as the webmaster and oversaw the various technical implementations that were used during nominations and voting.

    The way the AVA's work is that only people who work in Audio Drama are able to vote (meaning we're more or less like the SAG Awards). This criteria would include everyone on the production team for We're Alive (i.e. all of the actors, mixers, directors, writers, graphic artists, webmasters, PR team, ect.), and everyone else working in the same or similar production roles at other free audio drama and/or production group on the net. The overall idea being, that those in the audio drama community are able to vote for what they consider the best.

    Now, does that mean there was any rigging or cheating? As one of the individuals in charge of monitoring voting patterns, I can definitively say there was not.

    That said, one thing we *did* see was one small production group who only voted for their productions (and little else). In other words? This small group attempted to rig the vote. This did manage to impact one voting category, though the effects of their greed did not affect the outcome of the winner so we left things alone. But to clarify, this one incident does not constitute any rigging on our part; merely a selfish attitude among the individuals who participated in said attempt to rig the vote.



    I can't speak for Gwen as I don't work with Gypsy Audio (I work with Pendant, in case anyone was wondering), but Gypsy only won in one category. And that was with next to none of their own members voting for their own shows (Again, I can confirm this since I monitored voting).

    Additionally, you make an unwarranted jab at "...these people have(ing) to act the way they do." Nominations were open to everyone (fans included), meaning We're Alive was nominated because someone felt it needed to be. Also, the same goes for why it wasn't nominated in more categories... because someone felt it didn't need to be. And once more, the same goes for why it did not win in the finals: because enough voters thought another show was better.

    We tried our best to keep these awards fair and honest. There was no rigging, no insider politics, and no horseshit. So, if you're wondering why We're Alive didn't win, chock it up to more folks from your production team (and voters coming from others) not voting for it (Also, for the record, I can confirm that very few people from the We're Alive team voted in the AVA's).

    Some good news though: If it makes folks feel better about the AVA's, I can confirm that We're Alive came in second place in all but one category it was nominated for. Meaning you guys still did well. That's something to be extremely proud about.

    If anyone has any questions of comments about anything I just said, please let me know! I'm more than happy to answer them: negative or positive.
    Ok, kinda clears it up a bit for me. I would of assumed if they could vote, everyone would vote for themselves. But at least we came 2nd....

  3. #23
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    I still blame Joe Rogan. #StitcherFiascoAllOverAgain
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  4. #24
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    Gamertag: kc wayland Steam ID: waylandprod
    Quote Originally Posted by Beallman View Post
    So, if you're wondering why We're Alive didn't win, chock it up to more folks from your production team (and voters coming from others) not voting for it (Also, for the record, I can confirm that very few people from the We're Alive team voted in the AVA's).
    As far as I know I think I was the only one who voted on our team. I felt one vote per production was fitting. In fact I didn't even nominate us for anything. I let whoever thought we deserved something do that. I still voted for us in the categories I think we excel in, which is biased considering I am the lead of this project but honest because I did listen to the other nominees.

    Perhaps posting the result here just opened it up for criticism because everyone here, is here because they love our show. At the same time they're also big audio-drama fans, so reactions shouldn't be just passed off either. These reactions of the fans aren't specifically shared by the WA production team, but I agree there could be improvements for next time.

    1. We have a crew of about 8 and about 88 actors... Vote stacking is easy, but also almost impossible NOT to. If any other audio drama production is voting, they WILL vote for themselves. Perhaps limiting votes per production would circumvent that. It's the only way to truly balance it out. OR, just not count the votes that are self-categories. If you open it up to public voting, then it becomes a spam contest.

    2. Let the production nominated choose 15 to 30 second samples that best fit the entry being judged for that category. It's near impossible to know who an actor is in a production sometimes, so to have a segment with their best performance makes sense. Our production is currently about 43 hours long. Can anyone easily find segments? No. That goes for every other category as well. Nominated for music, have a segment that shows your best use of music. Sure, this would require some work from the productions, but is very essential. If they don't provide the segments for the nominees, then they don't qualify. How else would people properly vote for who deserves it? Comparing this competition to SAG awards isn't fair because you have faces to match, and those entries are only 2 hours long.

    The goal of having this competition should be to expose people to the best of the best, and would be a great way to share listeners.
    Likes scbubba, Osiris liked this post

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc View Post
    We have a crew of about 8 and about 88 actors...
    Holy.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc View Post
    Vote stacking is easy, but also almost impossible NOT to. If any other audio drama production is voting, they WILL vote for themselves. Perhaps limiting votes per production would circumvent that. It's the only way to truly balance it out. OR, just not count the votes that are self-categories. If you open it up to public voting, then it becomes a spam contest.

    2. Let the production nominated choose 15 to 30 second samples that best fit the entry being judged for that category. It's near impossible to know who an actor is in a production sometimes, so to have a segment with their best performance makes sense. Our production is currently about 43 hours long. Can anyone easily find segments? No. That goes for every other category as well. Nominated for music, have a segment that shows your best use of music. Sure, this would require some work from the productions, but is very essential. If they don't provide the segments for the nominees, then they don't qualify. How else would people properly vote for who deserves it? Comparing this competition to SAG awards isn't fair because you have faces to match, and those entries are only 2 hours long.

    The goal of having this competition should be to expose people to the best of the best, and would be a great way to share listeners.
    I thought that maybe they could make them vote for others, instead of your own piece of work, to prevent biased voting: If everyone else voted for one drama, that would be the winner (obviously). Why would they need their own votes to bolster that win? I understand it could make or break a victory, but still....

  6. #26
    Beallman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc View Post
    As far as I know I think I was the only one who voted on our team. I felt one vote per production was fitting. In fact I didn't even nominate us for anything. I let whoever thought we deserved something do that. I still voted for us in the categories I think we excel in, which is biased considering I am the lead of this project but honest because I did listen to the other nominees.

    Perhaps posting the result here just opened it up for criticism because everyone here, is here because they love our show. At the same time they're also big audio-drama fans, so reactions shouldn't be just passed off either. These reactions of the fans aren't specifically shared by the WA production team, but I agree there could be improvements for next time.

    1. We have a crew of about 8 and about 88 actors... Vote stacking is easy, but also almost impossible NOT to. If any other audio drama production is voting, they WILL vote for themselves. Perhaps limiting votes per production would circumvent that. It's the only way to truly balance it out. OR, just not count the votes that are self-categories. If you open it up to public voting, then it becomes a spam contest.

    2. Let the production nominated choose 15 to 30 second samples that best fit the entry being judged for that category. It's near impossible to know who an actor is in a production sometimes, so to have a segment with their best performance makes sense. Our production is currently about 43 hours long. Can anyone easily find segments? No. That goes for every other category as well. Nominated for music, have a segment that shows your best use of music. Sure, this would require some work from the productions, but is very essential. If they don't provide the segments for the nominees, then they don't qualify. How else would people properly vote for who deserves it? Comparing this competition to SAG awards isn't fair because you have faces to match, and those entries are only 2 hours long.

    The goal of having this competition should be to expose people to the best of the best, and would be a great way to share listeners.
    Thanks for the feedback KC! You have no idea how valuable it is!

    While it thankfully didn't happen this past year, Gwen and the rest of the AVA team have already been discussing what to do if vote stacking does happen. While it's definitely a potential problem we need to be on top of, we don't feel like the possibility of it happening should be a deterrent for prospective voters. We should hopefully have a final policy verdict on it by this summer.

    As far as public voting goes, the very reasons you noted (spam and vote stacking) are part of the reason we weren't allowing fans to vote. Though due to the overwhelming fan response, we're looking into some sort of "fans choice" award that we might be able to incorporate into the show next year, should it prove to be little extra work for the crew.

    Finally, the suggestion of samples is a good one. But we purposely decided against it due to the fact that this is how the Parsecs handle things, and prior feedback we received indicated that productions hate having to put in the extra time in to produce said clips.

    That said, we do have an alternative method of exposure in the works, which you'll hopefully be seeing some of later this year.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc View Post
    As far as I know I think I was the only one who voted on our team. I felt one vote per production was fitting. In fact I didn't even nominate us for anything. I let whoever thought we deserved something do that. I still voted for us in the categories I think we excel in, which is biased considering I am the lead of this project but honest because I did listen to the other nominees.

    Perhaps posting the result here just opened it up for criticism because everyone here, is here because they love our show. At the same time they're also big audio-drama fans, so reactions shouldn't be just passed off either. These reactions of the fans aren't specifically shared by the WA production team, but I agree there could be improvements for next time.

    1. We have a crew of about 8 and about 88 actors... Vote stacking is easy, but also almost impossible NOT to. If any other audio drama production is voting, they WILL vote for themselves. Perhaps limiting votes per production would circumvent that. It's the only way to truly balance it out. OR, just not count the votes that are self-categories. If you open it up to public voting, then it becomes a spam contest.

    2. Let the production nominated choose 15 to 30 second samples that best fit the entry being judged for that category. It's near impossible to know who an actor is in a production sometimes, so to have a segment with their best performance makes sense. Our production is currently about 43 hours long. Can anyone easily find segments? No. That goes for every other category as well. Nominated for music, have a segment that shows your best use of music. Sure, this would require some work from the productions, but is very essential. If they don't provide the segments for the nominees, then they don't qualify. How else would people properly vote for who deserves it? Comparing this competition to SAG awards isn't fair because you have faces to match, and those entries are only 2 hours long.

    The goal of having this competition should be to expose people to the best of the best, and would be a great way to share listeners.
    Tell 'em Kc-Dave!

    Kidding aside, that is the most well-reasoned argument for something as subjective as a pat on the back I have ever read. That said, I still think WA got shafted. While it is more often than not buried below other things on my 'to listen' list, it remains one of the best productions I have ever heard, with some of the most interesting and unique characters. Perhaps, the next year will see an independent, non-biased group in control of the ballots. Perhaps taking the process out of the hands of the creators, and placing it in the hands of people willing to be--perhaps--more critical of the shows nominated. At the very least it should assuage the masses prone to crying foul. Perhaps a panel of writers and producers NOT associated in any way with the companies or actors on the ballot.

    Someone probably already said that, and I'm just being repetitive.

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  8. #28
    Kc's Avatar

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    Gamertag: kc wayland Steam ID: waylandprod
    Quote Originally Posted by Beallman View Post
    Finally, the suggestion of samples is a good one. But we purposely decided against it due to the fact that this is how the Parsecs handle things, and prior feedback we received indicated that productions hate having to put in the extra time in to produce said clips.
    That's a valid point. Parsecs wants slates and things. I would actually advise not making them clips-reels, but rather just a 15 to 30 second unaltered and unedited segment. No fades, nothing, but pure cuts. It would only take roughly a minute to export. Granted it'd take longer to choose, but the reality is that it would expose more people to samples of possible best segments. It's sort of advertising.

    And of course, I feel I must add in that even though we didn't win I support you guys and the work you put into all this. Hope you don't feel that I, in any way, have any negative feelings towards you guys or the committee who put this on.

  9. #29
    Beallman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc View Post
    And of course, I feel I must add in that even though we didn't win I support you guys and the work you put into all this. Hope you don't feel that I, in any way, have any negative feelings towards you guys or the committee who put this on.
    Oh, of course! Anyone who follows your work around these parts knows you're all about the things that advance the cause of online audio drama, including the AVA's.

    And thanks once again for the feedback! Like I said before, it's highly valuable to everyone on the team.

  10. #30
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    Random sugestion to prevent vote stacking:
    Create a panel with an odd number of judges - lets say 5 for this example. 3 people are experts in the performing/ technical production arts that are not actively involved in the audio drama industry & the other two "people" represent the final results from two open polls - one of the fans & one of the audio drama community.

    This way if an entire crew or fan base decides to stack the odds they only influence part of the vote and are counter balanced by experts w/ a set if guidelines given to them by the award creators - and less of an agenda.

    You could base the polls on the 15-20 second clips Kc sugested & the other judges could be given an entire episode (for a more informed decision).
    Likes Osiris liked this post


 
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