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  1. #51
    LiamKerrington's Avatar
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    Thank you. My historical approach is vague at best. I am sorry for havin' been so rude and crude about it.

    Yet, I was not refering to the legal state so much, but more towards the "matter of fact"-state at the end of WWII. At least in the last months of the war many guys were enlisted who were somehow capable of holding a gun and aiming at "something"- especially children and young men. Therefore weapons were in hands that normally wouldn't be allowed to hold guns. These guns had to be retracted from private folks - no matter what. Also, and I think this was an incredible and well done feat established by the winners of WWII as well as the democratic successors of the Nazi-regime that by all means two things were established: a military service with the sole and single purpose to defend the nation of West-Germany against intruders as well as strict and well-observed rules that would not allow private persons to get hands on handguns or any other kind of weapons; the latter basically was reinforcing a legal situation that was established way earlier - at least in the aftermath of WWI, if not even before that.

    So my whole point here is: Germany as we now it as of now never was able to establish a somewhat comparable way of living with guns like what the USA or other countries with less strict rules of weapons have; and considering the mass-murder and hellish incidents that my ancestors were capable of doing the situation right after the war was all about preventing the so accurate and effective Germans becoming human-slaughters again.

    I am sorry, again, that I am pretty and obviously shallow about what has happened back then. Point for me is: It is nearly not possible to speak in favor of handguns here in Germany, 'cause you pretty spontaneously become a persona non grata or something next to it. Germans really have a lot of trouble imagining a society in which each and everyone would be allowed to posses guns. That is the spirit here in Germany, while on the other hand German policemen express some weird way of showing balls because they wear uniforms and guns with them ... Crazy. Madness.

    All the best!
    Liam
    Last edited by LiamKerrington; Dec 26th, 2012 at 11:01 AM.
    Zombie Story:
    - raises the acceptance of killing humans in huge numbers,
    - reveals everything bad and and even worse about human behaviour and psychology,
    - is fun.

  2. #52
    scbubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabbage Patch View Post
    One of the realities in America is that there are a lot of guns here, and the bad guys always seem to be able to get their hands on them. The only ways to prevent this are 1) take away all firearms from everyone, eliminating the supply, or 2) make the penalties for illegal possession or criminal use so devastating that no one will consider it. Since the same politicians who hate private ownership of guns also oppose harsh criminal sentences and dispise the death penalty we live in a perpetual impasse.
    Both of these approaches were taken in the war on drugs here in the US. Neither worked incredibly well and #2 was subsequently undermined by the folks CP mentioned.

    We live in a global economy so whatever there is a demand for will always be available from somewhere. In the end, demand drives the amount and the availablity. That being said, those that want guns will get guns. Those that want to kill people will kill people (e.g. Timothy McVeigh).

    The society & culture of the US is different from that in a lot of other countries. Sometimes it's better, sometimes not.... There aren't easy answers around things like the Newtown & Rochester events, but abridging one of the rights that was important enough to be put in the first set of amendments out of hand shouldn't be the first attempt.
    Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

  3. #53
    Ordinary12's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice the shortage of ammunition in the stores? I can't find any 45 ACP or 12 Gauge Slugs.

  4. #54
    Cabbage Patch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordinary12 View Post
    Did anyone notice the shortage of ammunition in the stores? I can't find any 45 ACP or 12 Gauge Slugs.
    5.56 mm and 7.62 mm (both NATO and AK) are impossible to find where I'm at, and 9 mm is scarce on the shelves. It feels like this has been going on for four years now. At first I heard it explained away as high demand for military calibers because of the wars in the Middle East. I don't know what the excuse is now that those are winding down.

  5. #55
    scbubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabbage Patch View Post
    5.56 mm and 7.62 mm (both NATO and AK) are impossible to find where I'm at, and 9 mm is scarce on the shelves. It feels like this has been going on for four years now. At first I heard it explained away as high demand for military calibers because of the wars in the Middle East. I don't know what the excuse is now that those are winding down.
    I'm having a hard time funding any 9mm (FMJ or JHP) around my neck of the woods. Talking to the old guy im the gun dept at a local Walmart, he said that ammo has been flying of their shelves since the last election.

    Was at the gun shop/range this afternoon and they were low on everything but shotgun shells and .223 FMJ. And their inventory if firearms was down to about 1/4 of what they normally stock. Said they have tripled sales in the last 2 weeks.

    For what it's worth...

  6. #56
    Condor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamKerrington View Post
    I need to admit:

    About my point a) I am not 100% sure; it is only a conclusion from what I see in various news and reports; but considering the rules established for Germany after WWII (no private guns a lot in order to prevent Germany becoming an evil motherfucker again) it is a rather safe assumption that at least in some regions my depiction may be wrong ...

    @Condor: You are a master in concluding my wall words to two very fine statements - at least the one half of me having no trouble with private gun-ownership. Thank you, 'cause that's the way I have a strong feeling towards.
    edit: And yet I feel very uncomfortable holding a gun in my hand - most likely because I am just not used to it.

    Happy Holidays everyone!

    And P.S.:: And forgive my bad spelling in the wall of words ...
    If you weren't across the pond, I'd gladly let you come by and fire off a few rounds to get more comfortable.

    I think most anti-gun folk just don't know about or understand guns and that turns into to a fear of the unknown. (<-general comment, not directed at anyone)

    As for spelling (which I didn't notice), to paraphrase Larry the Cable Guy "If guns kill people, I can blame misspelled words on my keybord".

    Quote Originally Posted by Cabbage Patch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ordinary12 View Post
    Did anyone notice the shortage of ammunition in the stores? I can't find any 45 ACP or 12 Gauge Slugs.
    5.56 mm and 7.62 mm (both NATO and AK) are impossible to find where I'm at, and 9 mm is scarce on the shelves. It feels like this has been going on for four years now. At first I heard it explained away as high demand for military calibers because of the wars in the Middle East. I don't know what the excuse is now that those are winding down.
    Just when prices were starting to stabilize from 2008 panic buying, we get panic buying on steroids this time and what you can find is outrageously expensive. Last weekend, I was at a gun show and noticed a vendor that had 1000rd American Eagle .223 in .50cal cans for $995 and people were buying him out, I saw one gun buy 2 cans. People were buying ARs, AKs, anything tactical looking, like crazy and didn't care about the prices, it was a madhouse. I'll be at another show this weekend, hopefully I'll survive the crowds.
    Oh yeah, and last weekend I didn't find anybody that needed last minute Christmas money, although I did pick up a used Mare's Leg (like the lever action pistol that Woody Harrellson carried in Zombieland).


    There's high civilian demand right now, but I'm also still hearing the high military demand too. I also thought there were supposed to be military reductions, so why is there an increased demand NOW? Maybe it's the conspiracy theorist in me, but I'm wondering if there's something in the works civilians don't know about yet. As an example, I read this: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=1...mo-Information
    Brownells Ammo Information

    AMMO NEWS UPDATE 12/11/12

    We recently met with representatives from Federal Premium Ammunition, and they are working diligently through every channel they have to ease the current shortages. However, the shortages will most likely be with us for some time. The Lake City ammunition plant that produces this ammo is first and foremost a government production facility. It is used to manufacture ammunition for the commercial market only when excess capacity is available after the government’s orders are filled. The problem right now is that both government and commercial demand are high. Government demand must be fulfilled first, so Federal’s hands are somewhat tied in terms of ramping up commercial production.

    When commercial ammo is produced, Federal feeds it into the supply chain, and they assure us that Brownells is well positioned in line for allocations. But for now deliveries will be modest at best. This situation is not likely to change dramatically in the next 60 days.

    As a result, we are seeking out alternate sources of this military type ammunition, and as we acquire inventory we offer it to our customers with backorders in the order their original orders were received. Many of our customers have already received e-mails offering them an alternate to the backordered product.

    We continue to communicate daily with the Federal folks, and will post here any additional news as soon as we receive it.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

  7. #57
    Blues_127's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reaper239 View Post
    the second place becomes the vice president...
    A men. Like it is in the Constitution. Damn I love that document. Written hundreds of years ago with thousand year old truths concerning the nature of the governing, and the governed.

    For Christmas, it was almost comical, all the men exchanged ammo. (Shakes box...ooh...certainly isn't cologne!) I too remember high school days down in Georgia when the kids would show off thier new shot guns in the parking lot, and grudgingly lock them in thier rack in order to go to class.

    My question: Can our modern society handle the freedoms we enjoyed? There is definately a link between education, morality and freedom, as I understand history. I wonder if the first two have degraded to the point that the later can no longer be enjoyed.

  8. #58
    LiamKerrington's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    SPOILER: HUGE Wall of Words ahead, which may lead slightly off-topic. But I'd like to give you a very brief idea about the current situation and the historical beacons regarding the legal situation for private persons and gun-ownership here in Germany. But I put it into the PS. And if you are not interested, then simply skip it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    I think most anti-gun folk just don't know about or understand guns and that turns into to a fear of the unknown. (<-general comment, not directed at anyone)
    Close to or part of my understanding. And it depends on the given society and political situation, thus the legal context as well. In Germany only very few people have access to guns and may actually even own them. (see my P.S..) And most people don't even care or think about weapons, because we are not used to it anyway - and that for a long time. They are simply not part of day-to-day activities; actually only in military services, police forces, sportsters and hunters (yes, we have those!) guns are in (frequent) use. But else ... No way. And with the various discussions about what is going on with assassinations, brutal criminal activities, the evil, evil computer gamers getting out of control and starting to shoot people in real life, all the accentuated news about what's going on in the US ... all those things don't push us folks closer to guns - at least not out in the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    As for spelling (which I didn't notice), to paraphrase Larry the Cable Guy "If guns kill people, I can blame misspelled words on my keybord".
    Ex-act-ly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blues_127 View Post
    Can our modern society handle the freedoms we enjoyed? There is definately a link between education, morality and freedom, as I understand history. I wonder if the first two have degraded to the point that the later can no longer be enjoyed.
    Not much to wonder about. In my humble opinion the degradation has reached an advanced state already. I would like to add respect, care and responsibility (in any random order) to your list. And I see a lack in each of those lived by most people in "consumer-societies". For as long as _we_ stick to behaving like consumer-idiots, I don't see changes for the better. Yeah, this is quite pessimistic and simplified and a striking comment.

    All the best!
    Liem

    P.S.: Current situation and very brief overview over the historical development ---
    -------------
    In my earlier postings I emphasized a "fact" that weapons/ guns for private persons would not be allowed here in good young Germany (Germany is not old ... Just close to 64 years by now). Now, that is not very accurate. Because actually we may be allowed to own and use guns according to the general law regarding weapons. I don't speak of war-weaponry, but of such items that may be used and carried around by a single person. Under these conditions someone may be allowed to get access to guns:

    § 2 WaffG (Law over Weapon ownership and usage)
    - You need to be a full grown up, i.e. 18 years of age.
    - The handling of guns and ammunition as mentioned in a specific appendix to this law requires a public authorization. (expl.: jike a driver's licence, just for guns)
    - The handling of guns and ammunition as mentioned in another specific appendix to this law is forbidden. (i.e.: NO WAY you get access to those guns!)
    - Certain weapons may not require a public authorization or only a partial public authorization as mentioned in a specific part of a specific appendix to this law. Also certain weapons and ammunition as mentioned in another specific part of a specific appendix to this law are not covered by the rules of this law.
    - In doubt, if certain weapons or ammunition may be considerable under the rules of this law, the public authorities will decide how to handle the situation.
    So basically this rule only says: In general you may not own or use weapons at all, unless you have a public authorization or the given weapon, or ammunition does not require such an authorization. In the latter case we speak about weapons from before the year of 1871 or air-guns or alarm pistols. The list of totally forbidden guns is long, very long; and it includes things like butterfly-knifes, automatic pistols and guns, accessories for such guns (yes, even aiming-devices and laserpointer and stuff) etc. And yet it is possible to get public authorization for some guns and accessories and ammunitions:

    § 4 WaffG - Public Authorization
    In order to receive a public authorization you need to fulfill these requirements:
    - you need to be 18 years or older,
    - you need to be credible and have the personal aptitude,
    - you need to have the proper knowledge about guns and usage of guns,
    - you need to prove that you actually NEED a gun,
    - and you have to prove that you have a specific insurance covering damages of up to 1 Million EUR that are related to the usage of guns.
    These things have to be controlled in a three year term by public authorities.
    In the following paragraphs this particular law gets into many details and even more specific requirements. Considering only the things in § 4 WaffG this means: In Germany it is not impossible to get access to guns, but the hurdles are pretty high and absolutely not beatable by most people, 'cause they won't be able to explain, why they would need a gun. Especially when it comes to things like aptitude, credibility, and need many things simply depend on how and what the public authorities decide. The level of preventive/ prophylactic gun-control is very, very high; owning and using guns is not a personal or private question here in Germany - no matter what.

    I wonder how 'our' rules relate to rules in other countries - like within the EU and especially the basic weapon-regulations of the US. And I imagine that 'our' rules are quite the opposite of what is possible and allowed in many parts of the US.

    Please and again and about the history: The weapon law in Germany has quite old roots. Actually the first laws were established in the 15th century; and those laws asked for allowing only public authorities to own, carry and use weapons. From the middle of the 19th century to the Weimarer Republic questions about gun-allowance for private persons were highly debated, and the legal situation quickly became very confusing; the biggest issue was that there was no registration of guns and ownership; people owned different weapons (up to war-machines actually), but public authorities had a lot of trouble controlling things. After WWI and the Agreement of Versailles, the Allied Forces ordered that the German people were meant to be disarmed - totally disarmed. By the end of the 1920ies a partial legalization of guns was achieved again - like weapons licenses and the 'free' trade of certain weapons and ammunitions along with registrations and stuff. Back then the questions about credibility, aptitude, and need were established as legal rules for the first time. In the following years there was much of turmoil regarding the legal situation which lead to several emergency decrees. And in 1938 the weapons-law of the German Reich was established, which was - actually - the model for the weapons law from 1968/1972, which is active up until now (with some minor and major amendments/ changes).
    Right after WWII the Control Council of the Allied Forces ordered the Decree no2 that no private person or public entity in Germany may own, or use weapons - up until 1976. But in the first decade ofter WWII some limitations were put to this Decree - such as sportsters may use certain light weapons, public authorities were re-armed, and even the weapon law of the Reich was finally re-established in 1956.

    So, as you can see: Here in Germany the development regarding gun-allowance and gun-control was and is very lively. And as you can also see: Since the questions of gun-onwership and gun-usage by private persons was always discussed and answered by public authorities, 'guns' never became part of the German society, which may explain some things (if not a lot) about how 'we' look at it.

    And the devil in this scheme is simply this: Since guns are no private matter here in Germany, the acceptance for weapon rules like the ones in the US is very low, because the fundamental understanding is completely different.
    Funny, though: We like watching all those whammy-effect movies from the US, were bullets are support actresses and support actors ...

    Now ... I hope I did not get carried to far away.
    Zombie Story:
    - raises the acceptance of killing humans in huge numbers,
    - reveals everything bad and and even worse about human behaviour and psychology,
    - is fun.

  9. #59
    YetAnotherBloodyCheek's Avatar
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    Just some minor additions:

    As supicious as Germans are concerning firearms - a lot of them do not mind visiting marksmen festivals. Hell, the world's biggest marksmen festival or "Schützenfest" takes place each year in Hanover. See: Hanover Schützenfest. And it is not the only funfair around, uniting the two primarily masculine interests guns and beer. Furthermore, it has to be mentioned that there lots of Schützenvereine where people can train and exercise their shooting skills. Are we talking of a small group of people? No, we are actually talking of 1,500,000 marksmen.

    But the good news is that they can easily be identified by the clothes they wear:

    Pegs' pretty precious potato planter

  10. #60
    LiamKerrington's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    yeah, sure. The marksmen-festivities in Germany stand in opposition to what I wrote in my wall of words which considers the overall situation. But you should not forget: Most members of those clubs or associations are basically down to the air-guns and sports-guns; and the limitations on owning, carrying and using the guns are tight even for them. I won't deny that there are or may be members that have received the allowance for bigger/ real guns as well; but those are mostly only few people. And in all honesty I would not know what sleaze they are involved with in order to get such allowances. Raped women have hard times receiving the allowance, and they are more likely in dire need of such an allowance then some marksman-d-bag in a club.
    Also you should not forget that most visitors in those marksmen-festivities are just passerbies who are not affiliated with those clubs anyway. They just enjoy paying tremendously huge amounts of money into low-quality beer and sausages and very, very abhorrent music ...

    German Leitkultur ... SUX HELL!

    All the best!
    Liam
    Zombie Story:
    - raises the acceptance of killing humans in huge numbers,
    - reveals everything bad and and even worse about human behaviour and psychology,
    - is fun.


 
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