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  1. #11
    nikvoodoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel View Post

    Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.
    You said something about a lt throwing their title around in the field getting in deep doo doo. I'm not military so I wouldn't know. there wouldn't be a point in being all like "nuh uh!" Because you'd know better than I.

    but even without military experience, every one knows what makes a good leader because most likely we've all had at least one example in our lives.

  2. #12
    HaveCrowBarWillTravel's Avatar
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    Ahhh I gotcha. thanks for the reply. I can say in 20 years active duty, i've had 2good leaders. The rest have been managers.

  3. #13
    Robalypse's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion with some solid arguments all around.

    Angel is probably my favorite character in this series, partially because of how dynamic he is as a personality. I'd have to agree with where this discussion seems to be concluding that as it stands now, Angel has more of the potential to grow into someone who could be a great leader, than pull it off right now. Michael clearly has had the persona of a leader from the get go, I think anyone who has lived has met those folks in groups of friends who seem to just fall into that role somehow like he does. Yet it sounds like when he was actually overseas, he was more content to remain at a rank where he wouldn't have to be responsible for many others, so it seems it's something he had to grow into himself, he just had longer to do it than Angel.

    I do think Angel deserves a hell of a lot more respect from the tower residents, including Michael than he currently gets though. He's done arguably more for the tower than anyone, including deciding on the tower in the first place.

  4. #14
    Ra1th's Avatar
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    Gamertag: Lake IX
    Quote Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel View Post
    Ra1th,

    The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
    That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

    Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.
    even though saul has the most experience, he has a few weaknesses. One, he has terrible aim, you can see this when michael chooses Angel over saul in clearing out the hallway after they rescued lizzy. the second is that saul, even with all his experience remained a specialist. Michael said it himself, the only reason saul didn't outrank him is because saul couldnt keep his mouth shut. Allthough i will give you this he is confident in himself. But is that confidence a little misplaced? He was dead certain of himself when he made that bet with Lizzy, and he lost. But without a doubt saul's abilities in the field exceed Michael's and Angel's like setting up zip lines and close combat with the knife. but that aim is a serious blindspot. I dont know if leadership is one of the themes surrounding saul, it's never really come up with him.
    Angel's #1 Fan

  5. #15
    Yoyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveCrowBarWillTravel View Post
    Ra1th,

    The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
    That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

    Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.
    Well, one can also argue that Saul is just more gun ho about dealing with them(!) as he was willing to rush to the Humvee when they were in the hardware (or was it grocery store?) when Angel was right to pause for a moment to see for a better option. Of course, Saul then thought to activate the car alarms to distract Them! but Angel sees that discretion is the better part of valor. He is just as brave when it comes to fighting but is rather more careful when entering the situation. I still have to give up the point that Angel could just be a sucky pitcher but hey, I'm no better ha. And yes, not so good tactician as he didn't even come up with the building falling down on the behemoth plan.

    Other than that, Angel rank of Liutendant more or less really does signify being second in command. Even before the outbreak, he was second in command to the commander. As much as I would argue that Angel would be a great leader, it is hard to argue against Micheal being a better leader than Angel. Angel is just more uncaring about people than he would care to admit. I mean he gave up on Bert, Saul, and that un-named woman being dragged by the zombie. Furthermore, he was going to let Liz be zombie food rather than open the door along with wanting to hold up just by themselves during the outbreak at the beginning. Maybe this is something he will grow to care more about as he patch things up with Kalani and that was a vauable experience.

    On the flipside, Michael and Saul go leaps and bounds for the people (and animals) they care about. Michael literally hit a person with a shovel in a place he knew next to nothing about and Saul was willing to save his dog during a zombie attack. If anything, I think it would be a major plot point to have Angel not do the same for someone like Riley and have her die. It would showcase the difference Angel has compared to the other 2 army men but then again, this more or less happened when he left saul to die. Bert did the same thing too and he made up for it in his willingness to fight.

    But in Angel defense to multiple things: Angel at the beginning was rather shooken up by the thought of zombies actually being real and he had not combat experience. He let Michael take the lead while still remaining in command which in my mind, is the sensible things to do as to let someone who knows what they're doing do what needs to be done. Once they were at the tower, Michael just happen to set the pace where Peg and Riley took to him to be the one in charge. They didn't know better that Angel was the one theorically in charge. Seeing that Peg and Riley look to michael, he deferred Michael to keep in charge of the tower and their safety while he led the scavenger mission. Which in this case, seems again the right thing to do as to keep things simple as possible.

    Moving on, Angel in the wake of Michael nonappearance on the roof, probably did not feel it was right to outright say he was when Michael could be coming in any second after him despite how dismal the chance of that happening was at the time. He still at the time contested what Bert plans were and still came after him to talk sense into Bert when he was trying to leave. His only major failing is that he didn't order issues the way michael did after the zombies were gone. Even then, I felt it was only because Angel felt that Michael would come back to being his old self in leading the tower sooner rather than later. I would think he didn't want to complicate that though I admit on Angel part, a failure to shine through. Bert on the otherhand, didn't have such notions so immediately took to ordering issues and it is what lead to him to be the de facto leader. It helped Bert too that all the orders he gave out were rather sensible and had Angel had a problem with said orders, I do believe he would have seize control.

    Overall, Angel has what it takes to be a great leader and I do forsee him taking leadership one day (maybe though as a leader of a second base of operations which to me would be most likely as Michael is too good and too needed not to be leader) but he is comfortable taking a backseat to someone else being in the lead. Afterall, it his job description to be second in command and leader in abscence of said leader.

    P.S. I do hope i did not bore anyone with tears with what i said.
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  6. #16
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    I love all three characters. Michael, Angel and Saul for vastly different reasons.

    Angel, is young and very smart. He does lack experience in a military aspect but Michael in the first chapters gave him respect for the fact.. HE is trained to see the bigger picture and plan accordingly. Michael is trained to execute that plan. Angel is willingly putting himself out there into harms way and learning and trying to expand himself. I think in time he could lead.. But here is the point my tired brain is trying to make.. Michael, Saul and Angel are in my opinion.. meant to be together. They need each other. Each of them has something the others lack.. Michael sometimes needs a voice of reason. (Angel) Angel needs the experience and support that Michael brings and willingly shares with him.. They both need Saul. He keeps them from taking themselves to serious. He makes them both more human.. (and before you all poke me for being saul's fan girl I will only say.. Everyone needs a Saul. and you all know I am right!!! )

    Back to Angel. Do I see him leading in time.. Yes.. I see him stepping up to the plate when they need him in the most critical time and being successful.
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  7. #17
    mythicgr66's Avatar
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    not until some thing major happens to angel as he needs to grow up as a leader wouldn't of gone back to bed when lizzy got kicked out and the same to burt as he folded to steven.

  8. #18
    Dyehardjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mythicgr66 View Post
    not until some thing major happens to angel as he needs to grow up as a leader wouldn't of gone back to bed when lizzy got kicked out and the same to burt as he folded to steven.
    Umm, hello... did you actually listen to episode? Angel jumped through a window. That only happens in movies, and still the protagonist gets hurt. You try jumping through a window, running from, let's see, a Behemoth, almost getting squished underneath a building, and not go back to bed after being woken up from a fight, which you didn't even want to be part of.
    Angel going back to bed doesn't mean that he has poor leadership qualities... it just means that he is tired, and wants to rest.

    As for Bert, sure, he didn't have any more movie quotes to throw back at him, but he even admitted that he isn't used to leading civilians. He was used to leading soldiers, people who trusted him, not civilians who are mostly lost in this world without protection. Bert does have the ability to be a leader, in some ways that it.
    Wait a few Chapters, and I'm sure he will help everyone with some major plan of some sort.
    Last edited by Dyehardjr; Apr 6th, 2011 at 09:03 AM.
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  9. #19
    Rock Daddy's Avatar
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    I feel like when Angel finally steps in, it will be when they are no longer in the tower. But I definitely do see him becoming a leader at some point. Even if it's a scenario where the tower folk split up...
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  10. #20
    Dyehardjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Daddy View Post
    I feel like when Angel finally steps in, it will be when they are no longer in the tower. But I definitely do see him becoming a leader at some point. Even if it's a scenario where the tower folk split up...
    Ya, i see that too. Angel is good at leading smaller groups of people that are doing some sort of mission. But I don't believe that he could actually take control of all the tower folk. That is Michael's job.
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