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nikvoodoo
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:02 AM
Let's get our science on people! What the hell was in those bottles??!! What the hell was Tanya testing for??!!

What the hell??!! Hell...hel....

Well just enjoy the show. Happy Monday!!

scbubba
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:04 AM
What the hell indeed! 5 more hours......

Storm
Oct 28th, 2013, 07:16 AM
Three hours... Right? Normally I would have said four, but since we just adjusted our clocks one hour backwards I'm kinda confused. :D Now I'll have to get used to new times on each forrain forum I'm reading on since I'll have to calculate post dates/times...Just to have it all change again in six months.
And here I thought that DST was meant to save time, not spend more on figuring out time zones...
Anyways, 39.2 is out soon... I wanna hear more about Raaandy! Or no, I'd rather no more about Raydon Labs or Ink... Ink can talk, Randy hasn't yet, therefore Ink is cooler.

LiamKerrington
Oct 28th, 2013, 07:32 AM
Yes, from now in about 3 hours ...

Will #-39-2 be about the bottles (again) or Tanya? Or will the focus change to Saul, Lizzy, Victor, Kelly and lil Henry? I mean ... Hell, infants ARE chemical reactions, aren'T they? Especially if you consider pewking, pooping, and other hilarious stuff ... !

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 07:46 AM
Two hours. America has not shifted it's clocks. It is ~9:45 local time and we normally get it a little before 12:00

FunkyDung
Oct 28th, 2013, 07:53 AM
The fellas at WA Fan Cast have me wondering about something else. Namely, do we think Saul and Victor will raid CJ's files at Dunbar and find info about Randy there? Surely she has a file on him pre-zombification and possibly also post.

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 08:12 AM
The fellas at WA Fan Cast have me wondering about something else. Namely, do we think Saul and Victor will raid CJ's files at Dunbar and find info about Randy there? Surely she has a file on him pre-zombification and possibly also post.

There should also be info on Duncan and lots on the mallers. If we go :tinfoil: there is also a picture of Kilani. Ink has green eyes. Samantha had green eyes and kilani's name did not match his face. We still do not know why some are taken early in the outbreak. Datu was taken as a trap. Do we know what color eyes angel had?

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 08:47 AM
In defense of Jay in part 1

People harsh on him for being a noob, but he was the one to notice the time stamp. That is good stuff. Might be a case of person in the wrong job. Driving up onto a flower box may even have been the better option. We just do not know.

Me, I want to harsh on the people that put something as mission critical as the .50 cal on something without 4wheel drive. Sure, blame the FNG!

Merlin1274
Oct 28th, 2013, 09:02 AM
Oh man. I need a Super power to speed up time.. Cause its taking way too long for 12 to get here for me to listen to the next Chapter. I brought my lunch today too and I am hungry..

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 09:09 AM
In defense of Jay in part 1

People harsh on him for being a noob, but he was the one to notice the time stamp. That is good stuff. Might be a case of person in the wrong job. Driving up onto a flower box may even have been the better option. We just do not know.

Me, I want to harsh on the people that put something as mission critical as the .50 cal on something without 4wheel drive. Sure, blame the FNG!

Yeah, he serves a story telling purpose too. As a new guy who doesn't know much about the mission, he provides a realistic way for the audience to learn what the main characters are doing. It makes more sense to explain the spotters to a new guy than to, say, Carl whom one could assume would have already been briefed and trained.

Footbutt
Oct 28th, 2013, 09:16 AM
Oh man. I need a Super power to speed up time.. Cause its taking way too long for 12 to get here for me to listen to the next Chapter. I brought my lunch today too and I am hungry..

haha! i'm in the same boat.
i couldn't wait and decided to eat my lunch @ 10AM. now i have an 'excuse' to go grab something unhealthy and fill some time so i can listen to WA on a full stomach!

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 09:56 AM
Oh, that sad sad piano score.

LiamKerrington
Oct 28th, 2013, 09:57 AM
This episode was like sledge hammers at red heat in your face - so close to this:

http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEyLzEyLzA0LzA3L3BldGVyZ2FicmllLmFFbS5qcGcKcA l0aHVtYgk5NTB4NTM0IwplCWpwZw/b0a77f6a/c5d/peter-gabriel-asks-facebook-fans-to-recreate-sledgehammer--567a1f30b3.jpg

Need to digest ...

clem131
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:04 AM
My iTunes just begun downloading but I want to get out on a limb and say a preventive "KC quit trolling" just in case.
(kidding, I love the trolling)

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:13 AM
Several likely answers, a couple of new mysteries, a few insights and that sad piano score.

RIP Wendy.

Monster mani
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:26 AM
Nuuuhhhhh!!!

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:31 AM
Very good Sci-fi writing. I really like the idea of tracking the byproducts and the results of changing as opposed to writing what the causes the change. Makes the story a bit more plausible if you are able to tell what is happening as opposed to how and why.

As for the behemoth tumors, I have an INKLING those aren't exactly tumors. :tinfoil: Placentas? :tinfoil:

Tanya has created a Cylon detector and uncovered the firsts of the Final Five.

LiamKerrington
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:34 AM
Yeah, I think a couple of theories wereverified, others maybe falsified. This episode is kind of an eye-opener and puts a totally new spin or momentum to the show ...

And "Datu the Ressourceful's Grease Monkey Gun of Slaughter in da House" is kind of pretty cool.

What I really like and enjoy: Datu is established as a serious as well as comic relief character on this show. And it works very well. Sweet. Sweetsweetsweet.

As for what's going on with "the rising numbers" ... This really is something very, very heavy. Although I never became a fan of "him", I kind of feel very sorry about "him" ... Anyway. Since many of us haven't listened to the episode yet, I won't spoil anymore, until this thread has significantly grown. But then I will be happy to join the theory-frail.

One last note for now: This episode has the potential of creating some Nobel Price Nominees in the WA fandom ... I am looking forward to reading some serious science shit over here ...

Best wishes!
Liam

Storm
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:37 AM
THIS!WAS!EPIC!!!
But damn, I feel sorry for Saul and Tanya! And now it just seems even more likely to me that Saul's going to die. Michael did after all talk about him in past tence (Saul WAS a good soldier) back in chapter 1.

Oh, and go Datu! You just invented the poor man's 50 cal.! Make that Mata-gun worth the Work! :D
I can't wait to find out what they'll find at Raydon. :)

BTW, anyone WHO can tell me how to spell what ever Tanya was measuring in the blood?

Merlin1274
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:41 AM
Where to start with this.. Datu and his Badass Gun.. This will be an interesting build to follow.. But yea Why do they not reload ammo.. Its easy I am sure there is a crap load of places they can get powder and bullets and yes eventually they will run out.. Just like they have with their current ammo supply..

With Glenn helping him maybe it will turn out to be something really good for them.. Compressed air is a bitch. High enough and it can slice you in half.

Yea for Potatoes..

Looks like in the last 4 mths. Pegs and Michael have stepped up a notch..

So Raydon is a Pharmaceutical company. This will be interesting next chapter..

I wonder what Victor's foul up was that is causing Michael not to want him out.. Another Mystery..

Well Seems Kelly and them did know about Tonya being bit.. Which brings me to the possible sad part.. I almost got misty eyed for Saul when he was talking about the baby and Lizzy.. Maybe she can do an MRI if they can get to one and determine if they have changed internally yet. But would explain back in the old theories about them being slower turners and why Saul could breath back at ground Zero.

Saul almost recalled Raydon. I wonder if it would have made much of a difference if he did. Other then recalling Burt said they were smart..

Kelly at Dunbar.. That was not expected.. But least we may get more peeks into CJ's files.

On Happy Note. Tanya will move in to help with the delivery of the baby.

But I hope Tanya will learn they have the virus but its not changing them. Its been how many mths since she was bit and Saul was shot with the pass through bullet?
I am not sure how this one will play out.. Their levels still are not super high yet. Maybe they will not turn but could turn others with their blood.. That would be interesting.. Like on 28 weeks later.. The wife carried the virus and was immune but could infect others.

Gonna relisten to this at home tonight while I reload some .357 Mags.

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:44 AM
Storm,

K 18 Keratin

K
E
R
A
T
I
N

Storm
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:49 AM
Storm,

K 18 Keratin

K
E
R
A
T
I
N

Haha, thanks. No need to spell it out like that, though, I just needed the Word. :)
*Starts googling*

UndeadSweeper
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:51 AM
Where to start with this.. Datu and his Badass Gun.. This will be an interesting build to follow.. But yea Why do they not reload ammo.. Its easy I am sure there is a crap load of places they can get powder and bullets and yes eventually they will run out.. Just like they have with their current ammo supply..

With Glenn helping him maybe it will turn out to be something really good for them.. Compressed air is a bitch. High enough and it can slice you in half.

Yea for Potatoes..

Looks like in the last 4 mths. Pegs and Michael have stepped up a notch..

So Raydon is a Pharmaceutical company. This will be interesting next chapter..

I wonder what Victor's foul up was that is causing Michael not to want him out.. Another Mystery..

Well Seems Kelly and them did know about Tonya being bit.. Which brings me to the possible sad part.. I almost got misty eyed for Saul when he was talking about the baby and Lizzy.. Maybe she can do an MRI if they can get to one and determine if they have changed internally yet. But would explain back in the old theories about them being slower turners and why Saul could breath back at ground Zero.

Saul almost recalled Raydon. I wonder if it would have made much of a difference if he did. Other then recalling Burt said they were smart..

Kelly at Dunbar.. That was not expected.. But least we may get more peeks into CJ's files.

On Happy Note. Tanya will move in to help with the delivery of the baby.

But I hope Tanya will learn they have the virus but its not changing them. Its been how many mths since she was bit and Saul was shot with the pass through bullet?
I am not sure how this one will play out.. Their levels still are not super high yet. Maybe they will not turn but could turn others with their blood.. That would be interesting.. Like on 28 weeks later.. The wife carried the virus and was immune but could infect others.

Gonna relisten to this at home tonight while I reload some .357 Mags.

Yea for Potatoes indeed!

Think about, Mata-Gun with Potatoes? Pota-Gun! Dangerous.

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:55 AM
Haha, thanks. No need to spell it out like that, though, I just needed the Word. :)
*Starts googling*

Just wanted to help. You are a blind listener, right? I just did not know how well the readers work. Have fun with it :)

Footbutt
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:09 AM
Well Seems Kelly and them did know about Tonya being bit.. Which brings me to the possible sad part.. I almost got misty eyed for Saul when he was talking about the baby and Lizzy.. Maybe she can do an MRI if they can get to one and determine if they have changed internally yet. But would explain back in the old theories about them being slower turners and why Saul could breath back at ground Zero.

....

I am not sure how this one will play out.. Their levels still are not super high yet. Maybe they will not turn but could turn others with their blood.. That would be interesting.. Like on 28 weeks later.. The wife carried the virus and was immune but could infect others.



i'm sensing a "Prometheus" (Alien Prequel) scene when the main character has that automated C-section done of the alien in her womb. crazy scene.

Saul is a hero in this story, and sadly, it looks like he might become a dead one.

and yeah, i'm waiting to hear about Victor's screw-up.

Storm
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:10 AM
Just wanted to help. You are a blind listener, right? I just did not know how well the readers work. Have fun with it :)

Oh, I definitely am. :D Only thing I had to do to get the spelling of the Word though woul be to hit Q until I'd get to the block quote with your post, then arrow Down to get to the line where you wrote the name, and then just use the left/right arrow to spell it. :)
Thanks for helping. Hehe.

HardKor
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:12 AM
Damn!
Saul and Tanya showing signs on infection is throwing me for a loop.
I've always been a proponent of the family immunity theory and I still feel mostly certain that things are going to turn out alright for them. But I'm starting to get that small little twinge of doubt that this could turn nasty before the end.
There is one thing sticking in my mind. I remember Saul noting in Chapter 28 that the zombies might not even be able to survive the haze at Ground Zero. So, if we do end up seeing Tanya going there to test the air and she ends up being immune to the effects the way Saul was, that might be an indicator that their high Keratin 18 levels are signs of something other than slow infection.

As for the whole Keratin 18 thing, in general. I only took a quick look at what it is, but what I found is that it is a molecule found in epithelial tissue, and that it is sometimes used to detect circulating tumor cells in blood.
So I'm thinking maybe the high levels of K18 in the blood during the first stages of infection could have something to do way the zombies skin thickens.
And circulating tumor cells just makes me think of how the behemoth was full of tumors. I'm no sure, I'll leave the rest of the digging to our resident researchers, but my mind's tingling.

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:16 AM
THIS!WAS!EPIC!!!


BTW, anyone WHO can tell me how to spell what ever Tanya was measuring in the blood?

Keratin k18

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:17 AM
Wow, still no sign of Burt and Riley. Not sure how anxious I would be to reconnoiter Raydon Labs. Scratch separated the fighting force once before with nasty consequences. They are spreading themselves thin between the colony, Dunbar, Raydon Labs and where ever Burt and Riley are. If Michael has even a tiny amount of command and control with them, I would want a sit rep and give them a heads up at the least and combine efforts if at all possible.

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:26 AM
Now we have Victor's foul up to add to Micheal's arm, and we haven't even learned about Calvin's Noodle Incident from 20 years ago.

UndeadSweeper
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:28 AM
Damn!
Saul and Tanya showing signs on infection is throwing me for a loop.
I've always been a proponent of the family immunity theory and I still feel mostly certain that things are going to turn out alright for them. But I'm starting to get that small little twinge of doubt that this could turn nasty before the end.
There is one thing sticking in my mind. I remember Saul noting in Chapter 28 that the zombies might not even be able to survive the haze at Ground Zero. So, if we do end up seeing Tanya going there to test the air and she ends up being immune to the effects the way Saul was, that might be an indicator that their high Keratin 18 levels are signs of something other than slow infection.

As for the whole Keratin 18 thing, in general. I only took a quick look at what it is, but what I found is that it is a molecule found in epithelial tissue, and that it is sometimes used to detect circulating tumor cells in blood.
So I'm thinking maybe the high levels of K18 in the blood during the first stages of infection could have something to do way the zombies skin thickens.
And circulating tumor cells just makes me think of how the behemoth was full of tumors. I'm no sure, I'll leave the rest of the digging to our resident researchers, but my mind's tingling.

So it's a tumor? *Queuing Arnold*

Anyway, so maybe we are looking for a cancer "cure" that cause the outbreak. We can look up chemical used in cures to find the answer about our mystery chemical in the two bottles.

7oddisdead
Oct 28th, 2013, 11:48 AM
"a frog can't turn back into a tadpole"

this line jumped out at me.

such a heavy episode....i need to digest this one for a day or so.

FunkyDung
Oct 28th, 2013, 12:33 PM
Keratin k18

Keratin 18 on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin_18
Keratin 18 on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22keratin+18%22&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C39&as_sdtp=
Keratin 18 and formic acid on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22keratin+18%22+formic+acid&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39
Keratin 18 and formaldehyde on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22keratin+18%22+formaldehyde&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39
Keratin 18 and formamide on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22keratin+18%22+formamide&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39
Keratin 18 and formalin on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=keratin+18+formalin&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=P65uUtfFOtjb4APv54D4Dw&ved=0CCoQgQMwAA
Keratin 18 on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=keratin+18

Formic acid, formamide, and formaldehyde all seem to have uses in genomic (and possibly proteomic) research.

Oddly, there also seems to be a link between formaldehyde and a popular hair treatment: http://nadinejolie.com/blog/2010/10/formaldehyde-testing-results-for-brazilian-keratin-blowout-companies/
Note: Hair is made from a type of keratin (not 18, though).

pmchawk
Oct 28th, 2013, 12:35 PM
All because you can't change someone back doesn't mean you can't slow or even stop the change..

Also, I guessing somehow Burt &/or Riley will be at Raydon Labs and may "come to the rescue" in a diar situation.

Merlin1274
Oct 28th, 2013, 12:45 PM
I forgot to mention. From Michael not wanting to talk to CJ and getting Pegs to do it and the conversation Datu had with Glenn and his narrative, sounds like CJ is being really hard on everyone and does not sound like its a good thing. Will be interesting to see how that house of cards will fall.

Vlarken
Oct 28th, 2013, 12:51 PM
Wow, this is probably my favorite episode this season. The conversation between Saul and Tanya was heavy duty, and so well acted. The scene at the end with Michael giving Pegs flowers through Datu cracked me up (I'm assuming he got them out of the flowerbed that the new guy drove into), glad to see that they're moving back towards being together. Also Datu's 'Matta-gun' (no idea how the spelling should be) was really cool, although I was just as skeptical as Glen.. And still sort of am. It just seems hard for me to believe that a gun using compressed air can have a more powerful impact and penetrating force than a .50 caliber bullet. However, I don't know much about guns in general. Man I'm excited for next week's episode; it has all the proper build-up to be something great.

(Also, the revelation about Saul and Tanya threw me for a loop: I was positive that they were both immune. Points to KC for once again taking the story for a new, unexpected twist.)

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 01:41 PM
This was a pretty hardcore episode in its revealing nature, but there are few forum posts at this time. Is everyone too stunned by the Saul/Tanya revelation to talk about it? In my humble opinion, this episode contains LOTS to think about.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Still thinking.

LiamKerrington
Oct 28th, 2013, 02:00 PM
This was a pretty hardcore episode in its revealing nature, but there are few forum posts at this time. Is everyone too stunned by the Saul/Tanya revelation to talk about it? In my humble opinion, this episode contains LOTS to think about.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Still thinking.

Ex-ac-tly!

LiamKerrington
Oct 28th, 2013, 02:05 PM
All because you can't change someone back doesn't mean you can't slow or even stop the change..

Also, I guessing somehow Burt &/or Riley will be at Raydon Labs and may "come to the rescue" in a diar situation.

Yeah. My first thought was: There are so many illnesses for the human body we stil don't have the full medical treatment for - like for example HIV -, and yet the pharmaceuticals available allow a thorough and strong control over shit like this.
But the bad news from Tanya is that the numbers slowly rise. So currently there is not much controle over the infection. I just wonder: When was it that Saul got infected? Was it his attempt to save Lady in the Hybrid, when he shot all those zombs and crashed into the Whisky-Bottles? Was it when he was shot by Burt that he got the infected blood from Tommy or the Jumper into his own blood-system? Or was it as late as his expedition to ground zero that he caught the shit from breathing the bad air just long enough? But in that case Victor and Pegs must have been infected as well - which would be very baaaaaaaaaaaad news ...
And then again: Saul was infected a long time ago. Why does his body apply to the z-factor so dramatically slowly? Is it because of his genetic code? Or is it because he received the "right" medical treatment at the right time?

Best wishes!
Liam

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 02:16 PM
I find it strange that Tanya says the woman is not turning fast or slow at the 22 minute mark. While we learned from season 1 that people were changing in a couple of minutes. This would indicate that one of the first changes is behavioral. Since Wendy was knocked out, we do not observe these mental changes.

However, if we go back to the start of Season 4, Amy gets scratched and is able to go to the hospital and hang out for a long while. Two people from the colony, two people taking a hell of a long tie to change compared to regular people in Season 1,

What I keep asking myself is how "normal" is anybody anymore? Are they the new normal or was there something special about them right from the beginning? They are from the colony, but a colony of what?

cupcakezombie
Oct 28th, 2013, 02:34 PM
Did quick research here on Keratin 18. It is associated with fibrosis tissue and scar tissue, such as might be found when someone has liver cirrhosis. It will greatly thicken and toughen the tissue.

pmchawk
Oct 28th, 2013, 02:47 PM
Teaches me for attempting to post right before going into meeting and it fail..

1st I think I'm going to predict that Saul's levels are actually dropping.

2nd my post that I lost was about the bottles. Micheal tried to read it and he believes it was "Fo...." I'm thinking it is actually "Fe..." Such as FeSO4. Fe is the element Iron. Iron is important to your health, something I don't recall and COGNITIVE(sp?) Function.

Perhaps a shot of Iron helps them retain their smarts or even improve them after they were changed.

Another thing I found was (no idea if it is relevant) K18 was that it was associated with the color red in a couple articles that were well above my head. Iron is also important for your red blood cells (saw that somewhere too).

And another article I found talked about K18 which I think Could be relivent, though it too was over my head, was K18 being tied to liver disfunction. What happens when you have a bad liver? The whites of your eyes turn yellow. Perhaps the heightened K18 effects your liver in a way that causes the eyes to go cloudy.

pmchawk
Oct 28th, 2013, 02:49 PM
Did quick research here on Keratin 18. It is associated with fibrosis tissue and scar tissue, such as might be found when someone has liver cirrhosis. It will greatly thicken and toughen the tissue.

Nice find

UndeadSweeper
Oct 28th, 2013, 03:09 PM
Teaches me for attempting to post right before going into meeting and it fail..

1st I think I'm going to predict that Saul's levels are actually dropping.

2nd my post that I lost was about the bottles. Micheal tried to read it and he believes it was "Fo...." I'm thinking it is actually "Fe..." Such as FeSO4. Fe is the element Iron. Iron is important to your health, something I don't recall and COGNITIVE(sp?) Function.

Perhaps a shot of Iron helps them retain their smarts or even improve them after they were changed.

Another thing I found was (no idea if it is relevant) K18 was that it was associated with the color red in a couple articles that were well above my head. Iron is also important for your red blood cells (saw that somewhere too).

And another article I found talked about K18 which I think Could be relivent, though it too was over my head, was K18 being tied to liver disfunction. What happens when you have a bad liver? The whites of your eyes turn yellow. Perhaps the heightened K18 effects your liver in a way that causes the eyes to go cloudy.

Going out on a limb, but are the zombies eat the living to regain their iron? I think you have something here. Maybe Randy was on a mission to get TOWM more iron. So the zombie are slowing dying from the increase in K18 and need iron to keep the count down.

Does this sound far-fetched?

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 03:25 PM
I find it strange that Tanya says the woman is not turning fast or slow at the 22 minute mark. While we learned from season 1 that people were changing in a couple of minutes. This would indicate that one of the first changes is behavioral. Since Wendy was knocked out, we do not observe these mental changes.

It's the behavioral change that has me the most intrigued. Good call about that being one of the first changes. The chloroform factor jumps out, as it was mentioned one of the soldiers. Even though Tanya says that it doesn't matter, it wasn't what she was looking for. There was also concern that Saul would turn while he was unconscious.

Perhaps this could explain the idea behind slow turners. If the physical changes take place slower than the mental changes then how might that affect the contagious nature of the disease? When Tonya tests the blood at time intervals the K-18 levels where elevating and peaked at around 1300, at which point she declares Wendy to have turned. Would her blood have been more contagious with each increase K18 level? If so, and Tanya was exposed to someone who was not fully turned then perhaps she did not get enough exposure to a fast turning. As for Saul, this case is not so similar. He seems to have been exposed after Tommy had turned (Which seems to have taken a long time). This isn't a new idea but the new evidence may support it better.


However, if we go back to the start of Season 4, Amy gets scratched and is able to go to the hospital and hang out for a long while. Two people from the colony, two people taking a hell of a long tie to change compared to regular people in Season 1.

But they weren't the only ones to take time to turn. The slow turner (James?), the man at check point #2 at Fort Irwin (he was exposed, stood in the examination queue and made it all of the way to the medical tent before turning), and Tommy (His behavior started to change slightly towards hostility before completely freaking out.)

Amy and medical-tent-guy were both attacked by either an Inkling or an Inklette (n-th generation Inkling).



What I keep asking myself is how "normal" is anybody anymore? Are they the new normal or was there something special about them right from the beginning? They are from the colony, but a colony of what?

I can't even begin to guess this one. Other than there seems to be and open-ended number of factors that could influence turning.

scbubba
Oct 28th, 2013, 03:26 PM
First things first.... I LOVED this episode. Even though I feel like I've been whipsawed around a county fair ride, it was awesome.

Tanya's data and possible findings - this is how I tend to think when solving problems: what do i know about what is going on and work back from there like following a spotty trail. I was wondering why she was being so circumspect about sharing the info, then....

Tanya and Saul's K18 Keratin levels - I'm a little leery of jumping on the wagon that the two of them have started to turn because they have levels in the low-mid 300's after hearing "normal" is near 200. Normal for some people could be in the 300's, so it's not proof that they are slow turners or "stopped" turners. Either way, the scene between Saul and Tanya was one of the best of the entire show to date. I like that she had a personal reason to want to keep the info from everyone else.

Tanya will be a more permanent resident of Dunbar - I see/predict and exodus of people from the Colony. As I said about last episode, Pegs, Datu, and Hope (maybe Glenn counts too) are the only ones still there at the time of this episodes ending. And with the fuel and ammo shortage and regular absence of the military guys... I see bad things happening at the Colony. And soon...

Michael and Pegs - awwwwww, how sweet. And we learn that Michael and Pegs both see CJ as overbearing and possibly hard to work with. This is even emphasized by....

Datu the Resourceful, Slayer of Little Ones, Royal Engineer - He and Glenn chime in a good it about the "CJ Oppression". That is, when they aren't talking about what will become the weapon that levels the playing field with the Little Ones. Call it a Mata-gun or call it LO-Mofo-gun. It sounds like it's pretty close to being a good replacement for .50 cal and minigun at taken down LOs. Man portable and multiple shots on target. Boom baby!

Back to Saul and Tanya for a moment. Like I mentioned before, this isn't proof that either of them is infected or turning. Tanya has only seen one real example of the elevated K18 levels in a turning individual (that we know of) and we don't know what sort of controls there are to test against because I'm assuming that neither of them knows what their K18 levels were before Z-day. But it brings up a few interesting items.
- IF Saul was infected and started turning, when did it happen? As someone else earlier in this thread pointed out there were multiple opportunities for Saul to catch the junk - In the hybrid, shot by Burt, at Ground Zero. If it was when he caught Burt's bullet or earlier, then that means he may have been in the turning process when he and Lizzie got their freak on (Bow chicka wow wow). What would that mean for Nicholas/Saul Jr/Adam Z?
- Who is going to find out about this and jump to the conclusion that Tanya wants to avoid? I think there is a good chance that this will come up because let's face it, as bad as most of the characters are at sharing info/intel, this is the kind of thing that someone will slip about and it'll spread like wild fire.
- Are there any natural causes for elevated levels of K18 Keratin in the blood stream? What about in creatures other than humans?
- Who will be going back to Ground Zero and how long will we have to wait for that to happen?

Well, that's as much as I can dig out of my brain after a single listen. Damn all this work from keeping me from digging in deeper right now.

Keep it going, y'all!

Cabbage Patch
Oct 28th, 2013, 03:31 PM
I loved the confirmation that Saul and Tanya have both have elevated Keratin 18 levels, but I don't think we can draw any conclusions yet. I'm not sure how often Tanya has been testing herself, but her baseline for Saul is fairly old. Hopefully she'll be able to run new tests soon, and we'll see that their K18 levels have remained steady or decrease. I'd love to know if their K18 level might have been naturally high, and if that might be a factor in their potential immunity.

I suspect that Saul and Lizzie conceived the baby before Saul was (possibly) infected, so Lizzie's normal K18 level might be a bit of a red herring.

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 03:46 PM
Back to Saul and Tanya for a moment. Like I mentioned before, this isn't proof that either of them is infected or turning. Tanya has only seen one real example of the elevated K18 levels in a turning individual (that we know of) and we don't know what sort of controls there are to test against because I'm assuming that neither of them knows what their K18 levels were before Z-day.

Correlation =/= Causation



I loved the confirmation that Saul and Tanya have both have elevated Keratin 18 levels, but I don't think we can draw any conclusions yet. I'm not sure how often Tanya has been testing herself, but her baseline for Saul is fairly old. Hopefully she'll be able to run new tests soon, and we'll see that their K18 levels have remained steady or decrease. I'd love to know if their K18 level might have been naturally high, and if that might be a factor in their potential immunity.

I suspect that Saul and Lizzie conceived the baby before Saul was (possibly) infected, so Lizzie's normal K18 level might be a bit of a red herring.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

Very good points, yet I feel that the as a work of fiction things might be as straight forward as they appear.

cupcakezombie
Oct 28th, 2013, 03:51 PM
Also, forgot to add, thanks Victor for being the voice of the people. To paraphrase "We are dying here Tanya (replace that with Kc), tell us something, tell us anything"

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 04:10 PM
Good point Withdoctor, I probably should not have inluded Amy. She may have been scratched by an inkling. We know tht the inkling infections are consistently much longer than what we observed for biters 1.0. Wendy was most likely bitten by a 1.0 with the ease with which it was killed.

nikvoodoo
Oct 28th, 2013, 04:30 PM
I expected a huge thread full of whoa! And wow! And holy sh...

Kc... You've done the near impossible.... You silenced the internet! ;)

That was one hell of an episode. I love the exploration of the testing. I feel for Saul and Tanya knowing what they know now. I...just wow. I was an emotional wreck leading up to my daughter being born. All of a sudden I was thinking about all the things I'd have to look forward to as a parent. I can't imagine learning what Saul may have just learned. And Tanya making the comparison to the tadpole and frog. I hate that piano music. So sad.

Good for Datu's Pneumatic gun. Wonder what he had to crank it to in order to out penetrate a bullet....

I like Michael trying harder to woo pegs. He's finally taking the note, but the ship has sailed I think. He's going to have to keep it up in order to get her back.

The only thing I hated about this episode... It's going to leave us with an epic cliffhanger next Monday and we're all going to come back here and scream.

Oh! And as for Victor screwing up: He did forget to mention Angel to anyone. That might be it.

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 04:43 PM
SCBubba, Tommy may have turned more slowly than what we would expect from Riley's chapter 1 description, but he was also exposed to a special one. Not an inkling, but not a run of the mill biter, either. Ugh, so much to try and figure out.

Riley's Description is backed up by the hundred or so that attack the reserve base at Bell.
Fernando changes quickly in season 2.

Oh and who do they fear talking? Early in the show that role was filled by Kelly. They expressed that fear of her when she spoke to Kalani

Z Sniper
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:03 PM
I just pissed my pants and no one can do a thing about it.

Witch_Doctor
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:06 PM
SCBubba, Tommy may have turned more slowly than what we would expect from Riley's chapter 1 description, but he was also exposed to a special one. Not an inkling, but not a run of the mill biter, either. Ugh, so much to try and figure out.

Riley's Description is backed up by the hundred or so that attack the reserve base at Bell.
Fernando changes quickly in season 2.


Summamuh Bish!!! You bring up a good point. Tommy was bitten by the jumper! Man, there are so many variables involved.

Litmaster
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:08 PM
Alright... I've been out for awhile. And damned busy, too. But here we go:

Overall Impressions
A very good, rich episode, with several great takes from many angles. Now, Kc has set thing up so that we can get action from:
1. The newly-expanded Colony
2. Mike and the Gung-Ho Army dudes on the hunt for Ink
3. Saul/Vic trying to pass Z-Gas at ground zero
4. Riley/Burt on the hunt for Scratch
5. Tanya/Kelly/Lizzy on the research front

Any of those offer some rich possibilities for story development, so I like how things have expanded from the rather confined atmosphere of the last 2 chapters...

Safe House 16?!??
Jesus! So CJ was able to orchestrate the creation of not only Dunbar itself, but 20-odd safe houses all around LA, all within a, what, 4 month period before they got overrrun? Yo, that's some serious planning..... SERIOUS planning...

Why the Behemoth's are Dying
I got nothin. Osiris? 7odd? Bueller???

340 K
So the concern is whether this means that Saul and Tanya are immune to the virus, or are in fact slow turners. I hope it's the former, but I credit KC on keeping us unbalanced as to the truth...

Don't Need Vic
Looks like Michael's snub of Vic's help sets us up for yet another Saul/Vic visit to ground zero. I'm all in!

C.J.'s Planning, pt. II
So.... video feeds from L.A.? Exansion 6 blocks south of the Colony? Heavy machinery??? Damn, CJ has really got these guys working....

Datu's "Mata-Gun"
This is the first time we have heard Datu's last name, I think. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am having a hard time visualizing just what Datu's pea-shooter exactly looks like. And how it exactly works, and what it fires, specifically.

Pegs-Michael, pt. II
Well, they still suck. Pegs is still bitchy, and Mike is still awkward.

Saul and Raydon Labs
Uh, doesn't Saul even listen to his own podcast??? If he did, he would quickly recognize that it was BURT who first mentioned Raydon labs, when he observed one of those "smart fuckers" trying to get on the rooftop where he, Saul, and Angel were camping out on the first night they met. They SMFUCKA had a Raydon Labs I.D. "The smarter you are in life, the smarter you are in death", quoth Burt. That doesn't bode well for Michael's crew heading over there for RECON...


Bce!!!!!

Cabbage Patch
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:14 PM
CJ has pushed a major expansion of the Colony. They've occupied, "an area of commercial buildings and homes to the south" that included another park, and access to a creekbed.

Here's a look at the Colony, both in its original and expanded forms:
http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2754&d=1383001859

Note that the expansion now puts the main gate in the middle of the Colony!

Litmaster
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:22 PM
An Audio Question on Datu's Pea-Shooter:

Ok, I am curious how Kc got the sound for this device. I listened to it several times, but I can't think of how they recorded the sound for Datu's shooter. What was it? A baseball pitching machine? I can't place it at all... O_o

scbubba
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:41 PM
SCBubba, Tommy may have turned more slowly than what we would expect from Riley's chapter 1 description, but he was also exposed to a special one. Not an inkling, but not a run of the mill biter, either. Ugh, so much to try and figure out.

Riley's Description is backed up by the hundred or so that attack the reserve base at Bell.
Fernando changes quickly in season 2.

Damn! Fine point, Grog. Completely forgot that Tommy was done in by a jumper and not a Z 1.0.... That may be the only non-1.0 turn other than LOs. Could skew the results dramatically. Ugh, too many damned variables in this equation!

Switching gears... Something I forgot to point out from the episode

- CJ's planning vs execution: she obviously had an awesome plan for securing and expanding the Colony. But when it came down to execution she falls short once again. Low on fuel and ammo with a much bigger perimeter to defend. And defense depends on both fuel and ammo. Again, it looked good on paper but left something to be desired on the field.

Now, this does work to set up the importance of Datu's Little One Slayer Mark I... :)

Verse
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:45 PM
My thoughts:

1) I think Saul and Tanya are fine. I could be off base, but my guess/understanding is that fluids is what spreads the infection. Bites and Blood. Bite would mean odds are you get sick from the spit. Tanya said when you catch it, you catch it. It is what it is. If they are "Slowly Turning" as she put it, then I would think they can spread it. I find it hard to believe that Saul and Lizzy have not kissed or had sex sense they have gotten back together. I could be making a leap in my guess, but if fluids in a bite can turn you, Blood can turn you, scratches can turn you then sexual fluids can. Again, I may be taking a jump and they have not "Been Together" sense they have gotten together, but I doubt that. My guess there is something there, but not the fact they are slowly turning and have the illness. I think it is a ruse. We will get the ole "Ah!!! I had you thinking it was this.. but it was really that!" later on.

2)I think CJ's leadership is fine. Based on the tone of the people I would guess she is doing fine. It sounded more like they didn't want to have to deal with the Red Tape. Also based on what Jay said she may not be happy with progress. Not as in "I hate you guys", but more of a "You haven't found anything to justify me not using you for other stuff". No one likes to get yelled at. My guess if people know she will call them out. At the end of the day no one likes being told what to do. She is getting results though and the tone people use tends to lead me to believe that they are just doing the normal Water Cooler Bitching you see people do at work. Michael made it sound like she would let him do what he wanted... but he would have to listen to her and he didn't want to.

3) I think the Victor foul up isn't a big deal as well. Odds are he didn't listen and it almost got bad. It wasn't a "After what you did? After what you did? No Jackass.... away with you!" Seemed more like Michael would just rather deal with his soldiers. We know Victor and Michael are no BFF's. Odds are he was out with them... didn't listen... something got jacked up... and Michael just would rather have soldiers that he knows will listen and not back talk. If it was a major mess up they would have said more. Like "Not after your foul up. He is worried you will get another person killed" Victor didn't fight or argue to much. If it was to bad we would have gotten the "I told him I was sorry that XYZ happened! He can't hold that on me forever!". If we find out what it was (I think we will) it will turn out it wasn't to bad.

Grognaurd
Oct 28th, 2013, 05:53 PM
Damn! Fine point, Grog. Completely forgot that Tommy was done in by a jumper and not a Z 1.0.... That may be the only non-1.0 turn other than LOs. Could skew the results dramatically. Ugh, too many damned variables in this equation!



Saul's first exposure?..
Chapter 3, with Burt and Angel. A smart one from Raydon Labs. "Oh, he's got my leg. I am ok though." Or something like that. I will have to go back and listen.

FunkyDung
Oct 28th, 2013, 06:20 PM
Saul's first exposure?..
Chapter 3, with Burt and Angel. A smart one from Raydon Labs. "Oh, he's got my leg. I am ok though." Or something like that. I will have to go back and listen.

I've always wondered about that. I've never been entirely convinced he wasn't scratched.

scbubba
Oct 28th, 2013, 06:54 PM
Saul's first exposure?..
Chapter 3, with Burt and Angel. A smart one from Raydon Labs. "Oh, he's got my leg. I am ok though." Or something like that. I will have to go back and listen.

Hmmm, exposure might be more than we think it is. Saul, Angel, and Michael got up close and personal on Z-Day several times with normals. How close is too close? Saul even used his knife to make sure a dead person/Z was all the way dead. Then he came upstairs with the knife.

So we're back to "When was Saul actually exposed to the thing that (might have) started turning him?"

Good call on the exposure back by the Raydon Labs smartie.

pmchawk
Oct 28th, 2013, 08:51 PM
An Audio Question on Datu's Pea-Shooter:

Ok, I am curious how Kc got the sound for this device. I listened to it several times, but I can't think of how they recorded the sound for Datu's shooter. What was it? A baseball pitching machine? I can't place it at all... O_o
Nail gun I think

Vlarken
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:28 PM
Ahhh these episode threads: I leave for a little bit, and when I come back a bunch of new theories and whatnot have been added. It's very cool, but a bit difficult to wrap ones head around. I guess I'll pick one: keratin, because it's fascinating. A few things about it that I find important (and I know some of these have already been said, just my own take on them):

Keratin is the key structural material making up the outer layer of human skin. It is also the key structural component of hair and nails.

So this crazy increase of keratin levels seems to be mainly responsible for the claws of the Inklings, and the toughened skin of both behemoths and Inklings. That still leaves the teeth as an unknown variable.

The only other biological matter known to approximate the toughness of keratinized tissue is chitin. (Chitin being the material that composes the exoskeletons of many arthropods, and other things similar thereto)

Chitin is basically armor. The reason arthropods can only grow to small(ish) sizes on land is because their chitin-composed exoskeletons would be too heavy for movement on land. However, sea-dwelling arthropods can still grow to large sizes. So this keratinized tissue of the Inklings and behemoths is probably as tough or tougher than any chitin, approximating for size, thus: skin stops bullets. Also I think this explains easily enough them being able to rip open metal doors with naught but their fingernails: an ant, grown to enormous size, would almost certainly be able to bite through metal with its chitin-composed mandibles.

It was mentioned that there are diseases that can be caused by mutations in keratin genes.

This might have something to do with the reason the behemoths are dying. Since their genes have probably been mutated more than the average biter, perhaps it has given them some type of special disease. Most of the diseases I think primarily affect the skin.

Lastly, I think that possibly the extremeness of derivation from human form that a biter experiences might be contingent upon how much its genes (keratin and others) have been altered. Thus, behemoths have been altered more than just normal biters, and will have a much higher keratin count.

Anyway, hopefully I haven't just repeated what everyone else has said, and brought something new to the discussion, and also hopefully I haven't rambled too much, lol.

Red Shirt
Oct 28th, 2013, 10:57 PM
Sooo... Raydon Labs is a Pharmaceutical (research?) Company. That sure opens up a whole lot of possibilities.

First, I'll say that when I began my research into K18 Keratin, I was a little taken aback. On Google, on my phone, the first few results were medical research companies to buy it from. Hmmm. :tinfoil:

Luckily, as I mentioned, I started my search on my phone. As you know smartphones display info differently than on lap/desktops... The mobile wiki displayed some info by default and hid it on the desktop version. In the sidebar click "show" next to "Gene Ontology." This will give you the Molecular function, Cellular component and Biological process of K18. Under Biological process I found some promising leads, things that Keratin K18 is involved in:


The apoptotic process. AKA: Programed cell death.
Anatomical structure morphogenesis.

The process in which anatomical structures are generated and organized. Morphogenesis pertains to the creation of form.
Host-virus interaction.

The process in which a virus effects a change in the structure or processes of its host organism.

To me, it seems that the massive amounts of K18 in the system is merely a byproduct of the metamorphosis into a "zombie." Tanya did say that the K18 levels drop off after turning. It also implies that the tumors in the Behemoth are also a side effect as well, probably as a result of excessive change. I would look for conditions or drug interactions or indications that can cause increased K18 levels.


What I keep asking myself is how "normal" is anybody anymore? Are they the new normal or was there something special about them right from the beginning? They are from the colony, but a colony of what?

Something I've wondered is, with the Family Conspiracy theory angle, NWO machinations, ect., could all of this actually be some sort of deranged "audition" for the "powers that be?"


But they weren't the only ones to take time to turn. The slow turner (James?), the man at check point #2 at Fort Irwin (he was exposed, stood in the examination queue and made it all of the way to the medical tent before turning), and Tommy (His behavior started to change slightly towards hostility before completely freaking out.)

Evolution. Successful viruses are the ones that don't kill the host right away. They have a longer incubation time, giving the host more time to contact and infect more secondary hosts. Fast turners are seen to be an immediate threat and are terminated. Slow turners like Saul and Tanya might be would seem to be ineffectual. Therefore, the mid-range turner would seem to be a more effective means of spreading.


Luckily, a guy I work with is studying biology. I'm going to run some of this past him. Speaking of, I work in the morning, so it's time to sign off.

Vlarken
Oct 29th, 2013, 12:06 AM
Evolution. Successful viruses are the ones that don't kill the host right away. They have a longer incubation time, giving the host more time to contact and infect more secondary hosts. Fast turners are seen to be an immediate threat and are terminated. Slow turners like Saul and Tanya might be would seem to be ineffectual. Therefore, the mid-range turner would seem to be a more effective means of spreading.

This is interesting. But then, if this were to bring about a true advantage in spreading, the slow-turners would really have to spread it in a different way than normal biters. What I mean is: the normal sickness is spread through the bites, and introduction of blood into the mouth and open wounds. A slow-turner, unlike a normal biter, isn't going to be biting people and spraying blood at them, so how would they effectively spread the sickness? Or perhaps slow-turners already do spread it in different ways, and the people whom they infect will also only be slow-turners. However, Lizzy, being in open bodily fluid sharing with Saul, would be a prime candidate for this type of infection, but Tanya said her blood did not have the high keratin count... Which could mean that it isn't spread that way, or that she is just an incubator for the sickness who hasn't shown signs yet. I have a feeling I'm getting ahead of myself, so I'll stop. O_o But yes, very interesting point.

Condor
Oct 29th, 2013, 12:43 AM
First off, Glen don't diss Datu the resourceful's gun.

Can't wait until Datu presents the "Mata gun" to Michael and the soldiers.
Datu: "This is a Mata-gun"
<cue soldier comedy troupe> "What's a Mata?"
"Nothing, what's a Mata with you?"
"Oh, I'll tell you what's a mata..."

LiamKerrington
Oct 29th, 2013, 12:51 AM
Saul's first exposure?..
Chapter 3, with Burt and Angel. A smart one from Raydon Labs. "Oh, he's got my leg. I am ok though." Or something like that. I will have to go back and listen.

Right, but ...
... there was no mentioning of Saul being wounded, scratched, bitten, harmed, etc. by the beast.

Osiris
Oct 29th, 2013, 12:56 AM
This thread better be 15 pages by tomorrow night or I have lost all fucking faith in you people.

Kc
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:04 AM
Nail gun I think

Referring to the question and the sound fx, it's a combination of like 6 different sounds. Same as Burt's Shirley. No gun sounds like his...

Osiris
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:06 AM
Good ep, Kc. I have noticed that the eps are . . . quieter. I have to max my speakers to hear the dialogue this season. Not a complaint. Well . . . kind of a complaint. But not really.

Storm
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:22 AM
Good ep, Kc. I have noticed that the eps are . . . quieter. I have to max my speakers to hear the dialogue this season. Not a complaint. Well . . . kind of a complaint. But not really.


Oh good, I thought I was the only one who found the volume really low. I have to turn up my headset all the way... At least if I want to pay attention to all the sound effects and audio quality... Which reminds me... In 391 when Michael says "just stay in the truck"... was that recorded with a different microphone/later in the process? It sounds like there's been removed just a bit too much background noise.
...Sorry for getting off topic. :)

Cabbage Patch
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:42 AM
I've been thinking about the Colony expansion, and it has me worried about that location's safety.

For starters, they've, at least, doubled the size of the Colony. If they did this by expanding the walls to surround the new territory then they have a lot more wall to guard now, and the maximum distance between sections has grown enormously. There aren't any more Colonists to guard the walls, and the only heavy weapons they have are 3 gun trucks (2 x 50 cal, 1 x minigun) and Datu's "Mata Gun" prototype. That's a huge potential problem.

Add to that the un-even quality of the existing perimeter walls, much of which consists of the existing buildings with their windows and doors sealed. The only description I recall of the rest of the wall was of cars piled up to block the cross streets and parking lot entrances. As far as we know the only area that had a serious wall, with guard towers, was the main gate, which now seems to be in the middle of the Colony! There are ways the new area could have been enclosed so that the main gate stayed the same, but only by making the perimeter walls even longer and harder to defend.

Don't get me wrong, I think expanding the Colony was a great achievement, and a testament to amazing leadership by CJ. I just worry that they may have bitten off more than they can chew.

Vlarken
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:53 AM
I would tend to agree with you, but with the greatly lessened amount of biters that are now being seen, it might not be as dangerous to have a bigger area with less security. Of course, if what I think holds true, that is, Ink has recalled lots of his soldiers to conserve force and build an army, then they've been lulled into a false sense of security, and the Colony will be quickly overrun when Ink finally decides to lead an attack. I agree that CJ has done something amazing, but she has bitten off more than she can chew in the past, and she seems a little too complacent about what's going on outside her walls. Michael is the one who actually realizes the danger.

cupcakezombie
Oct 29th, 2013, 02:56 AM
A few more things to add about K18 - It is primarily associated with the structural integrity of epithelial cells in the body. Note that this is not just the skin (epithelium) but includes linings of cavities of the body, muscle, connective tissue and nervous tissue.
So the rapid increase in all of these tissues will be associated with an increase of K18 need throughout the body to support the rapid growth.
Research also suggests that keratins are involved in signalling pathways that are involved in regulating cell death, cell growth, and movement of various simple epithelial cells (especially in relation to tumor formation). So increases in K-18 may not just be a by-product of the growth, but in an internal feedback loop help continue the growth of tissues in the body.

7oddisdead
Oct 29th, 2013, 03:09 AM
so....quite a lot to take in this episode, eh? ill go ahead and skip over all the obvious stuff most have mentioned and dig into my "randoms".....

we really did not learn nearly as much in this episode as most seem to believe. did we get some answers? hell yes! did we get THE answers?? not exactly.

what we now know:
-saul and Tanya are different, at least in some small way. (yea, that was a very powerful scene, good stuff.)
-exactly what Tanya was testing, what it was for. what info she gleamed from it.
-diesel is running low
-datu is still awesome, glenn is a good mentor. (those two work well togetherIMO)
-vic and Kelly sound more "married" than saul and lizzie

what WE can gleam from that info:
-the byproduct of turning (excessive levels of K18). this is not however whats causing it, what is causing the change is still unknown.
-tanya never specified what changes took place in wendy (internally), but we can bet that its not life threatening, due to saul/tanyas high level of functionality.
-fuel searches are becoming difficult, either fuel will become a major issue soon...or it won't. perhaps finally we will explore alternate fuels. vegtable oils, bio diesels, or hell...start growing a ton of corn.
-the mata-gun. datus a genius. ive wondered in the back of my mind why potato guns have never been brought up. a simple potato gun (pvc pipe,hairspray, potato, plus a ignitor) they can pack a punch. perhaps not nearly as much as the mata gun. but certainly a deterrant/noisemaker at the least.
vic and Kelly....need I say more? I could listen to those two snark back n forth for hours...makes me happy(and happy to be single)

more poop
its been brought up about keratin being found in scar tissue and fibrosis tissue. a thought that crossed my mind in relation to the behemoths(and rip this apart if im wrong, please). but, I know from experience that when building muscles (big manly muscles, haha) many get "stretch marks". this would be the byproduct of fast muscle increase beyond the size the skin is normally used to. I know I still have them from days when I was far larger than I am now. could the increased muscle capacity/size of the behemoths coupled with whats likely an already abnormally high level of existing scar tissue/keratin level have something to do with what happened to them? if any of what I just said makes sense then perhaps our whole "steroid theory" that's been around for a while makes sense after all.

the scene with saul and Tanya, while kinda heartbreaking it reminded me of something ive brought up before. an episode of the outer limits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Spheres_(The_Outer_Limits)

while, no....I don't believe this is actually something alien. I do wonder if we couldn't have a somewhat similar situation happening. in order to avoid the changes taking place that cause the "biter" change, we have to go through a similar, yet different change. what if saul/Tanya are just the first of an entirely new breed of "people"?

and another thing..if the levels of keratin rise to high levels during the change...what happens to it after? if it goes back down, it must be being processed in some way? you cant explain away something like that via osmosis ...or whatever. perhaps that's something we should all explore. RED SHIRT! YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT!

"frog cant turn back into a tadpole, saul." this line sticks with me, one of the most notable changes in the frogs to tadpoles metamorph. is gills to lungs (and legs, and losing the tail, and...) they also change from herbivore to carnivore...so they not only see a physical change but also a dietary change, which in turn leads to a behavioral change. this is a VERY apt comparison in the story.
when we couple the idea of frogs to tadpoles, with the keratin info, and with most of the ideas red shirt brought up earlier (EVERYBODY, REP THAT POST, MAN DESERVES IT) it really does force one to look at the possibility of "evolution/intelligent design"(after a fashion). while most of us would like to think of the evolution of our species being all "enlightened and prosporous and happy" that ultimately is but one of two options. that....or THIS < >

heh, got a bit meta there at the end didn't I?...I honestly just let my brain fart all this out...not much of any research. hopefully I give somebody some ideas....have fun folks...or else

todd out.

cupcakezombie
Oct 29th, 2013, 03:23 AM
and another thing..if the levels of keratin rise to high levels during the change...what happens to it after? if it goes back down, it must be being processed in some way? you cant explain away something like that via osmosis ...or whatever. perhaps that's something we should all explore. RED SHIRT! YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT!

todd out.

My guess is that once it is bound the levels circulating in the blood decreases, or whatever is causing it to be produced in the first place has run out ... maybe, kinda something... science!

scbubba
Oct 29th, 2013, 04:55 AM
I've been thinking about the Colony expansion, and it has me worried about that location's safety.

For starters, they've, at least, doubled the size of the Colony. If they did this by expanding the walls to surround the new territory then they have a lot more wall to guard now, and the maximum distance between sections has grown enormously. There aren't any more Colonists to guard the walls, and the only heavy weapons they have are 3 gun trucks (2 x 50 cal, 1 x minigun) and Datu's "Mata Gun" prototype. That's a huge potential problem.

Add to that the un-even quality of the existing perimeter walls, much of which consists of the existing buildings with their windows and doors sealed. The only description I recall of the rest of the wall was of cars piled up to block the cross streets and parking lot entrances. As far as we know the only area that had a serious wall, with guard towers, was the main gate, which now seems to be in the middle of the Colony! There are ways the new area could have been enclosed so that the main gate stayed the same, but only by making the perimeter walls even longer and harder to defend.

Don't get me wrong, I think expanding the Colony was a great achievement, and a testament to amazing leadership by CJ. I just worry that they may have bitten off more than they can chew.

I was thinking a very similar thing and thought I posted it last night but, alas, that post doesn't exist....

My thought was along the lines of CJ out kicking her coverage at the Colony. That is, the execution of Colony setup and expansion was good. A lot of progress and quickly. More than double the size and farm land, etc. But the plan wasn't sound. Over reached with their fuel supplies and created a much large perimeter to defend with dwindling resources (fuel and ammo). So CJ had a 180, IMO - great execution of a flawed plan. I'll put out there again that I think we're going to get some bad juju going down at the Colony before long. Might even result in the demise (death or turning) of a named character....

scbubba
Oct 29th, 2013, 05:15 AM
more poop
its been brought up about keratin being found in scar tissue and fibrosis tissue. a thought that crossed my mind in relation to the behemoths(and rip this apart if im wrong, please). but, I know from experience that when building muscles (big manly muscles, haha) many get "stretch marks". this would be the byproduct of fast muscle increase beyond the size the skin is normally used to. I know I still have them from days when I was far larger than I am now. could the increased muscle capacity/size of the behemoths coupled with whats likely an already abnormally high level of existing scar tissue/keratin level have something to do with what happened to them? if any of what I just said makes sense then perhaps our whole "steroid theory" that's been around for a while makes sense after all.

I always assumed the description of the stretch marks indicated very rapid growth of the body such that the skin couldn't keep up. I'd like to throw out there that it might also be HGH (human growth hormone) that was included in whatever "treatment" the big guys got to become behemoths. Steroids, HGH, or whatever - I think the behemoths were one of the evolutionary/intelligent design steps in the creation of the Little Ones (and anything that might be around after those guys....)


and another thing..if the levels of keratin rise to high levels during the change...what happens to it after? if it goes back down, it must be being processed in some way? you cant explain away something like that via osmosis ...or whatever. perhaps that's something we should all explore. RED SHIRT! YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT!

"frog cant turn back into a tadpole, saul." this line sticks with me, one of the most notable changes in the frogs to tadpoles metamorph. is gills to lungs (and legs, and losing the tail, and...) they also change from herbivore to carnivore...so they not only see a physical change but also a dietary change, which in turn leads to a behavioral change. this is a VERY apt comparison in the story.
when we couple the idea of frogs to tadpoles, with the keratin info, and with most of the ideas red shirt brought up earlier (EVERYBODY, REP THAT POST, MAN DESERVES IT) it really does force one to look at the possibility of "evolution/intelligent design"(after a fashion). while most of us would like to think of the evolution of our species being all "enlightened and prosporous and happy" that ultimately is but one of two options. that....or THIS < >

heh, got a bit meta there at the end didn't I?...I honestly just let my brain fart all this out...not much of any research. hopefully I give somebody some ideas....have fun folks...or else

todd out.

I'll second the request to REP Red Shirt on that post. Go do it, people!

As you know, I'm squarely in the camp of intelligent design - that is someone (human, smart one, alien, whatever) intentionally experimented on regular biters to make the runners, jumpers, behemoths, and Little Ones. These special types of Z are not a direct result of whatever the Z Day cause is. The questions remain: What is being done to make these new creations? Why is it being done? Who the hell is doing it?

Good stuff 7odd!

LiamKerrington
Oct 29th, 2013, 06:18 AM
Hi.

Two more thoughts:

- Did I understand Tanya right? Is she looking forward to seeing someone turn into a zomb in order to get more data for her research?

- Since Saul and Tanya at least seem to be different, what about this: Months ago I theorized about parallels to the movie of "Doom". What, if Tanya and Saul really have something in common with them zombs, but instead of becoming monsters, they turn into creatures of light? Maybe this could end in an ultra-deathmatch-fistfight between Saul and Ink ... ? I don't think, any of this is gonna happen. But it would be quite an homage to the movie of "Doom", although I don't know, if Kc likes the movie at all (and afaik the opinions about it are very controversial ...).

Best wishes!
Liam

LiamKerrington
Oct 29th, 2013, 06:27 AM
I am very glad that Cabbage Patch is back and gives us a lot of strategic insight. I started to miss marked maps and pretty amazing thoughts and commetnary on them. Really awesome.

What we have are a couple of things with the Colonists - the kind of "huge" Colony, Dunbar as a second major location, and 'between' those at least 16 (if not more) safespots. Ignoring the safespots, we have a kind of 'similar' situation like what we had with Irwin and Boulder. Were the events there a foreshadowing about what might happen to The Colony and Dunbar? I don't hope it. But it wouldn't be the first time that Kc would repeat certain "themes".

Another thing that strikes me about this local situation is that the Colonists "thin out their attention". The more locations they keep an eye on or they use for any kind of mission, the more complicated it will be to stay focussed. In #39-1 we learned that them zombs seem to be active in areas not well known to Michael's crew; and for whatever reason them zombs seem to carry around stuff - most likely with a purpose. This allows a lot of guessing and assuming that them zombs have establish a network of locations as well. Yes, true: their number of activities and encounters with the Colonists has decreased a lot. But why? Because they die, because they are tired of them Colonists, because they have started to focus on wild as well as gone wild domesticated animals? I don't think any of these things might be true; them zombs are up to something. And with the Colonists having lost focus (in the meaning of having spread their attention to too many locations at the same time) the zombs will take the advantage they create right now.

That's it for now. Later I will provide some more thoughts on #39-2 ...

Best wishes!
Liam

Merlin1274
Oct 29th, 2013, 06:30 AM
Doom.. The Greatest Video Game Series of All Time.. Movie was ok but not what I would have thought a Doom movie should be..

But that being said.. It does have me thinking of the similarities..

I still hold too Both are Host carriers but will not turn themselves.. But Baby Saul maybe the new breed of Humans to have the ability to fight the Zombies, well if we want to stay in the world that would be similar to Doom..

Back to the Topic at hand about a post of the colony expansion.. They have come a long way in a short time.. Which would lead to the others bitching about CJ and not wanting to deal with her.. She has to be cracking one hell of a whip.. No wonder Michael would prefer to stay outside the walls. But part of me just can't help to wonder why he has accepted her leadership more so then anyone else since the beginning of the story.. Granted she is a capable person. But I just can not see him and his tag along gang of Comedians just taking orders from her and worry about her wanting the truck back.. Its not like the .50 cal belongs to her. They brought those with them.

FunkyDung
Oct 29th, 2013, 07:57 AM
But Baby Saul maybe the new breed of Humans to have the ability to fight the Zombies

So Baby Tink is Blade? ;)

UndeadSweeper
Oct 29th, 2013, 08:06 AM
CJ has pushed a major expansion of the Colony. They've occupied, "an area of commercial buildings and homes to the south" that included another park, and access to a creekbed.



Wow, now that is detailed. No one cross Cabbage Patch or you have a detail map to your house :D. Are they making an Attack on Titan type setup? An inner gate that people can come into if the expanded area is overrun.

scbubba
Oct 29th, 2013, 08:47 AM
Another thing that strikes me about this local situation is that the Colonists "thin out their attention". The more locations they keep an eye on or they use for any kind of mission, the more complicated it will be to stay focussed. In #39-1 we learned that them zombs seem to be active in areas not well known to Michael's crew; and for whatever reason them zombs seem to carry around stuff - most likely with a purpose. This allows a lot of guessing and assuming that them zombs have establish a network of locations as well. Yes, true: their number of activities and encounters with the Colonists has decreased a lot. But why? Because they die, because they are tired of them Colonists, because they have started to focus on wild as well as gone wild domesticated animals? I don't think any of these things might be true; them zombs are up to something. And with the Colonists having lost focus (in the meaning of having spread their attention to too many locations at the same time) the zombs will take the advantage they create right now.

That's it for now. Later I will provide some more thoughts on #39-2 ...

Best wishes!
Liam

Your post has me thinking back a little. Ever since Season 4 started and we got past the 1st few days after the big fight ending Season 3, I've wondered about the population of the zombies. A couple of things pop into my head.

1) I think that there are a lot fewer of the normals after the Battle of the Colony. So there are fewer zombies to encounter in general.
2) General TOWTM has taken Team Zombie into hiding. He has established a base of operations outside of the observation areas of Team Human. I think Team Z has been doing recon and surveillance on Team Human for quite a while - even before the Battle of the Colony. This realization is sort of sparked in Michael when he mentions (in Ch36) that they seem to be attacked when they gather in large numbers.

So, it doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch that the zombies have been actively avoiding detection by the humans. They have plenty of room in the greater LA area without going underground or something similar.

But the idea of them having "safe houses" or observation posts near the Colony or Dunbar is a very interesting thought. And it all plays into Michael's statement of how foolish and optimistic they were before the events of ch39. Team Human has been seriously underestimating their opposition, methinks....

FunkyDung
Oct 29th, 2013, 08:51 AM
Bringing back formalin from another thread, I just thought it might be worth noting (in light of Tanya's tests), that formalin is used in fixation, i.e., tissue preservation. In particular, it can be used in a procedure know as formalin-fixed paraffin embedding (FFPE). Once embedded in wax, tissues can be sliced thinly for microscopic examination. One can also extract DNA samples by dissolving away the wax.

http://www.mobio.com/blog/2012/07/20/formalin-fixed-paraffin-embedded-tissue-dna-isolation-the-basics/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21901596
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_formalin_fixed_paraffin_embedded_tissues_i n_tissue_processing
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=formalin-fixed+paraffin-embedded&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=g8pvUuReldvgA6W4gcgM&ved=0CCwQgQMwAA

Seems to me that someone other than the known good guys is doing some serious medical research.

One more link, this one to a paper called "Human keratin diseases":

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.1996.tb00133.x/abstract

Footbutt
Oct 29th, 2013, 08:55 AM
PG-13 Post:

something that i keep reminding myself of is that Saul slept with/impregnated Lizzy BEFORE he was shot.

now, the time frame from when the are able to "do it" next is after they are reunited at the Colony, right? when she's several months pregnant?
Saul was chained up after he was shot, Lizzy left the tower, and then they don't see each other until the raid on the Colony.

now, they could have "done it" from then until now, i know, but the baby in-utero is highly likely NOT to be infected. i understand about umbilical cord stuff and transfer of mom/baby, but i dont' think it has to be a given that the Saul Jr. is necessarily infected/half-infected.

UndeadSweeper
Oct 29th, 2013, 09:22 AM
I've been thinking about the Colony expansion, and it has me worried about that location's safety.

For starters, they've, at least, doubled the size of the Colony. If they did this by expanding the walls to surround the new territory then they have a lot more wall to guard now, and the maximum distance between sections has grown enormously. There aren't any more Colonists to guard the walls, and the only heavy weapons they have are 3 gun trucks (2 x 50 cal, 1 x minigun) and Datu's "Mata Gun" prototype. That's a huge potential problem.

Add to that the un-even quality of the existing perimeter walls, much of which consists of the existing buildings with their windows and doors sealed. The only description I recall of the rest of the wall was of cars piled up to block the cross streets and parking lot entrances. As far as we know the only area that had a serious wall, with guard towers, was the main gate, which now seems to be in the middle of the Colony! There are ways the new area could have been enclosed so that the main gate stayed the same, but only by making the perimeter walls even longer and harder to defend.

Don't get me wrong, I think expanding the Colony was a great achievement, and a testament to amazing leadership by CJ. I just worry that they may have bitten off more than they can chew.

But wouldn't including the police stations, make better defense position?

Kc
Oct 29th, 2013, 09:54 AM
Good ep, Kc. I have noticed that the eps are . . . quieter. I have to max my speakers to hear the dialogue this season. Not a complaint. Well . . . kind of a complaint. But not really.


We keep mixing at the same level, but I'll keep that in mind for the next one. We might bump it a little.

LiamKerrington
Oct 29th, 2013, 10:32 AM
Hello.


...So, it doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch that the zombies have been actively avoiding detection by the humans. They have plenty of room in the greater LA area without going underground or something similar.

Yeah. Absolutely. And it is quite likely that many of the solitary beasts are not affiliated with Ink's group.


But the idea of them having "safe houses" or observation posts near the Colony or Dunbar is a very interesting thought. And it all plays into Michael's statement of how foolish and optimistic they were before the events of ch39. Team Human has been seriously underestimating their opposition, methinks....

That's exactly the main reason why I establish the idea of having very well organized zombs which have a network of subsurface channels, hiding places, their own set of "outposts" etc. And with Randy carrying around chemical stuff this gets more than less likely. Why the big EFF would a (smart) zomb run around with this crazy stuff? Only, because there is a reason behind it ... .

Best wishes!
Liam

FunkyDung
Oct 29th, 2013, 10:37 AM
Why the big EFF would a (smart) zomb run around with this crazy stuff? Only, because there is a reason behind it ...

Or, it could just be that KC needed to convey some important information to listeners, and that's how he chose to do it.

clem131
Oct 29th, 2013, 10:53 AM
Wow. This one left me speechless. The Tanya/Saul moment was very, very powerful. I still think they might be immune. More than for the practical information, I feel this scene is important for its...

clem131
Oct 29th, 2013, 10:59 AM
I forgot to say: I also like the quality more and more. Little details like the feedback on Kelly's radio when Michael calls Robins, just before she switches one out, or the sound of the Matagun.
BTW: "Matagun"? "The gun for the Freakin' Matador. Olè."
Also: "pea shooter". For a second I thought Pegs cultivated mutated Plants to use as a defense vs Zombies...

FunkyDung
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:01 AM
Agreed. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I thought the same thing when Tanya was talking about moving in with Saul and Lizzy. Sounds irresponsible to me. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Very much not so. Diesel cars are very rare in the US. Most of...

Osiris
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:14 AM
Am I the only one that kind of wants Saul to turn and eat the Lizzy?

FunkyDung
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:21 AM
Am I the only one that kind of wants Saul to turn and eat the Lizzy?


I'd much rather for Scratch to get eaten (and drawn, quartered, water-boarded, eviscerated, and set on fire). >:} *ducks*

Osiris
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:23 AM
I'd much rather for Scratch to get eaten (and drawn, quartered, water-boarded, eviscerated, and set on fire). >:} *ducks*

Yeah, but she hasn't completed her arc yet. Saul, and Lizzy have. They brought new life into the world. Game over man.

Grognaurd
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:43 AM
Tanya and Ground Zero

If they cannot bring Tanya to Ground Zero, then bring Ground Zero to Tanya

They have an air compressor and tanks. Bring the system to ground zero and take some concentrated samples. Going all :tinfoil: suppose Saul and possibly others are immune to the chocking effects of ground zero, but it incapacitated the biters, that is another possible weapon system.

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:52 AM
A very good episode, probably the best season 4 one so far.

I had a pretty good time, although I am not sure if I got all the tongue-in-cheek references. In my opinion, at least some of the episode's dialog was linked to the myriads of crackpot theories here around. The "there might be extremely slow turners" phrase by Kelly made me smile - and Victor's "whom else am I supposed to tell it?". Great. I might be completely wrong here but, well, it certainly made my day. :) Thank you very much.

So, back to business. My biggest question for episode 39-3 is, how is Michael and his team supposed to find anything at Raydon Labs if they do not know what they should look for? Maybe this place will be just a mess or it will be cramped with various equipment. I do not have any clues how they are going to classify the hints, information and "smoking guns" while they are not accompanied by let's say Tanya or Saul?

Footbutt
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:58 AM
Going all :tinfoil: suppose Saul and possibly others are immune to the chocking effects of ground zero, but it incapacitated the biters, that is another possible weapon system.

agreed! if even the zombies cannot stand Ground Zero and Saul can, then maybe they can utilize this effect, "test" it on captured zombies. "Make into a aerosol. Nigh, night, skin-suckers!"

Merlin1274
Oct 29th, 2013, 12:08 PM
Someone said Diesel? Yes Semi Trucks and Farm Equipment. Not a lot of cars but there are some. Specially farm trucks, big ole dualies to haul horse trailers. I know there is a lot of farmland in California.. But why have they not gone out of LA to get supplies.. I know there is some "unknowns" by doing so but they can venture outside LA head south or further north.. I know road congestion was an issue. Unless their is no fuel for the Pelican, why do they not just fly somewhere else and do some scouting.. Cali has a lot of Ports also. No telling what they can locate in some of those warehouses.. Anything from Canned goods to fertilizer. I know the story line can only handle so much but some one could say something about a surplus of food they found by doing something of the like.. Get a pump hooked to a Generator and take a tanker to various gas stations and start pumping diesel. I am sure their are 100's of Semis littering the hwys they can siphon diesel from.. I hope that has happened..
Now look at me carrying on like this is reality.. Well My alt reality has played these scenerios out thousands of times. So I tend to think of all sorts of places and areas to go to and get supplies.. Also all Store chains have large warehouse littering the country side. Those would be good targets of opportunity.. Sam's Club stores, Costcos, Basspro Shops, Cabelas and the list goes on.. There are towns all around. Hell maybe they would pick up some survivors along the way and bring them back. GET THE EFF OUT OF LA!!!!!

LizzyFabre
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:00 PM
Am I the only one that kind of wants Saul to turn and eat the Lizzy?


What the hell?!

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:01 PM
Keratin 18 on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin_18
Keratin 18 on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22keratin+18%22&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C39&as_sdtp=
Keratin 18 and formic acid on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22keratin+18%22+formic+acid&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39
Keratin 18 and formaldehyde on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22keratin+18%22+formaldehyde&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39
Keratin 18 and formamide on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22keratin+18%22+formamide&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39
Keratin 18 and formalin on Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=keratin+18+formalin&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=P65uUtfFOtjb4APv54D4Dw&ved=0CCoQgQMwAA
Keratin 18 on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=keratin+18

Formic acid, formamide, and formaldehyde all seem to have uses in genomic (and possibly proteomic) research.

Oddly, there also seems to be a link between formaldehyde and a popular hair treatment: http://nadinejolie.com/blog/2010/10/formaldehyde-testing-results-for-brazilian-keratin-blowout-companies/
Note: Hair is made from a type of keratin (not 18, though).

Hey, FunkyDung or should I say Atom Heart Mother (?),

nice compilation of links! May I add one more? What if the disease is somehow related to a modified form of hepatitis?

viral hepatitis (http://dermnetnz.org/viral/viral-hepatitis.html).

One of the symptoms is "increased susceptibility to skin tumours including skin cancer." Maybe an interesting read for the tin foil hat group.

nikvoodoo
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:07 PM
What the hell?!

I'd say he doesn't mean it.......but he does.

scbubba
Oct 29th, 2013, 01:44 PM
I'd say he doesn't mean it.......but he does.

Yeah. I believe he totally means it.... And he probably is the only one.

Cabbage Patch
Oct 29th, 2013, 02:40 PM
But wouldn't including the police stations, make better defense position?

It would depend a lot on how the police stations are constructed. I know that police stations in my part of California are generally built to common commercial standards, which means that they would probably be solid, but not fortresses. In that regard they would not be much different from any other buildings in the area.

The Orange County Sheriff's office where CJ, Saul and Victor set up their base, is actually located in a large government building that also includes a county courthouse and county offices. It would be a good candidate for fortifying, by sealing the outside doors and windows, and it would close off about half of a block.

The Westminster Police Station is a stand-alone building set pretty far back from the street. We know from the story that it was located on a slight rise, which is what made it such a good spot to spy on the Colony's gate. You could easily build it into the Colony wall, and it would make a good location for another guard tower.

There's a lot of space between the buildings that will need to be walled off. I think the easiest way to do this would be to use shipping containers. There are thousands of them sitting at the Port of Long Beach, maybe 10 miles away. Stack them up like Lego blocks, fill them with dirt or rubble, then weld them together and you'd have a very solid wall. Of course that would take a lot of diesel fuel.

One cool thing is that the storage garage where Saul and CJ found the 67 Shelby might now be inside the Colony walls. I'm not sure how useful it will be for CJ, but it would make a nice wedding gift for Saul and Lizzie.

Vlarken
Oct 29th, 2013, 02:46 PM
One cool thing is that the storage garage where Saul and CJ found the 67 Shelby might now be inside the Colony walls. I'm not sure how useful it will be for CJ, but it would make a nice wedding gift for Saul and Lizzie.

Like CJ would give it up. :D She wanted it for her 'collection', and I bet she's still too bitter that Saul and Lizzy's reunion actually went well to think of giving them a wedding gift. Maybe she could improvise and use her crutch on the pedals... That image made me laugh, and now I feel bad.

UndeadSweeper
Oct 29th, 2013, 03:28 PM
Does anyone remember Skittles warning about going to lab or doctor areas?

Vlarken
Oct 29th, 2013, 03:47 PM
Does anyone remember Skittles warning about going to lab or doctor areas?

Yes, when he's educating Angel and Kalani about the different types of biters, he tells them to stay away from those kinds of areas because that's where the 'brains' (as he calls them) hang around. I don't think this was done out of any desire to keep them from uncovering any sort of conspiracy, rather Skittles just knew that the smart-biters were near impossible to escape from, and so wanted to forewarn them against going to any place where they might be.

Condor
Oct 29th, 2013, 04:08 PM
Someone said Diesel? Yes Semi Trucks and Farm Equipment. Not a lot of cars but there are some. Specially farm trucks, big ole dualies to haul horse trailers. I know there is a lot of farmland in California.. But why have they not gone out of LA to get supplies.. I know there is some "unknowns" by doing so but they can venture outside LA head south or further north.. I know road congestion was an issue. Unless their is no fuel for the Pelican, why do they not just fly somewhere else and do some scouting.. Cali has a lot of Ports also. No telling what they can locate in some of those warehouses.. Anything from Canned goods to fertilizer. I know the story line can only handle so much but some one could say something about a surplus of food they found by doing something of the like.. Get a pump hooked to a Generator and take a tanker to various gas stations and start pumping diesel. I am sure their are 100's of Semis littering the hwys they can siphon diesel from.. I hope that has happened..
Now look at me carrying on like this is reality.. Well My alt reality has played these scenerios out thousands of times. So I tend to think of all sorts of places and areas to go to and get supplies.. Also all Store chains have large warehouse littering the country side. Those would be good targets of opportunity.. Sam's Club stores, Costcos, Basspro Shops, Cabelas and the list goes on.. There are towns all around. Hell maybe they would pick up some survivors along the way and bring them back. GET THE EFF OUT OF LA!!!!!
I agree with a lot of that. You mention Basspro and Cabelas, I assume you're talking about finding ammo. Just a little historical context, the story began in May 2009. During 2009 there was an ammo shortage due to post election panic buying (we are experiencing an even worse shortage this year). The shelves were probably pretty bare prior to Z-day, so there wouldn't much to scavenge.

Osiris
Oct 29th, 2013, 04:18 PM
It's not like that. I'd like to see Lizzy make it to the very end, but . . . Saul goes Z and he gonna get a hunger on. What? You want him to eat the baby instead?! What's wrong with you! Would you...

Osiris
Oct 29th, 2013, 04:19 PM
Yeah. I believe he totally means it.... And he probably is the only one.

Oh you so hateful.

Cabbage Patch
Oct 29th, 2013, 04:38 PM
...During 2009 there was an ammo shortage due to post election panic buying (we are experiencing an even worse shortage this year). The shelves were probably pretty bare prior to Z-day, so there wouldn't much to scavenge.

It's probably time for Michael to share the intel about the Long Beach "Naval Base" that the scouting team from Fort Irwin gathered. They reported that the base was "clear", so it might be worth searching it for for weapons and ammo.

Verse
Oct 29th, 2013, 05:57 PM
I am betting CJ has at least a few safe houses made inside the colony. Kinda like a Last Stand bunker. A place they can fall back to and go into siege mode. As much as she has plans with at least 16 safe houses for Dunbar I can't see her with none for the colony. With them saying they wanted to get some fliers made for people about Zombie facts, I am betting she put of some "If there is an issue... go here" sheets. I can't see CJ not having a place to go.

FunkyDung
Oct 29th, 2013, 06:15 PM
Yes, when he's educating Angel and Kalani about the different types of biters, he tells them to stay away from those kinds of areas because that's where the 'brains' (as he calls them) hang around. I don't think this was done out of any desire to keep them from uncovering any sort of conspiracy, rather Skittles just knew that the smart-biters were near impossible to escape from, and so wanted to forewarn them against going to any place where they might be.

I realize that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Skittles knows so much about the smart ones just because he's a careful and observant survivor, but... :tinfoil:

I haven't given up on my theory that Duncan let TOWTM into Dunbar on purpose. I also can't shake the suspicion that he had some relationshop with Raydon Labs, the mental hospital, or some other group of people somehow connected to Z-day. Thus, he may know about the smart ones because he saw them at the very beginning. Hell, for all we know he helped make them. I don't think that particular detail is likely, but I can't rule it out, either.

So, I'm still in the "not sure I fully trust Skittles" camp. Anyone else here, or am I alone?

Vlarken
Oct 29th, 2013, 11:11 PM
I realize that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Skittles knows so much about the smart ones just because he's a careful and observant survivor, but... :tinfoil:

I haven't given up on my theory that Duncan let TOWTM into Dunbar on purpose. I also can't shake the suspicion that he had some relationshop with Raydon Labs, the mental hospital, or some other group of people somehow connected to Z-day. Thus, he may know about the smart ones because he saw them at the very beginning. Hell, for all we know he helped make them. I don't think that particular detail is likely, but I can't rule it out, either.

So, I'm still in the "not sure I fully trust Skittles" camp. Anyone else here, or am I alone?

I'm actually with you, although the logic in me says that Skittles is just who he is, and nothing more. After listening to this episode my brain went on this wild tangent theory, which basically was: Skittles and Randy are the same person. I almost posted it too, but then stopped because of how ridiculous it seemed. But yes, I don't fully trust him. He just seems to me to be that character who is least suspected, and turns out to be a mastermind for just that very reason. In this case, his mental instability renders him instantly guiltless at a first glance, but then, if this suspicion runs its course, it would turn out to just be a camouflage. This doesn't make him bad, per say, but I do have the feeling that there's more to him than we think.

To throw in a Harry Potter reference (I've been making Harry Potter comparisons to We're Alive ever since that We're Not Dead episode): Kreacher. Kreacher is a partially insane house elf, who seems to be thrown into the story for two reasons: to show just how nasty and pure-blood-prejudiced Sirius' parents were, and to further Hermione's S.P.E.W. agenda (at least for the reader, it's another case of just how messed up a house elf's life can be). However, and this is a SPOILER if you haven't read The Deathly Hallows, it turns out that Kreacher had actually been in possession of Slytherin's locket, a Horcrux which he was given by Regulus Black; he turns out to be a crucial character in the overarching story, and is able to help bring about the destruction of Voldemort's Horcruxes. ....Okay, that was rather long and rambling, sorry, but my point is that it's the characters like these whom you have to watch out for: the ones who are easily overlooked because of big aspect of their character.

LiamKerrington
Oct 30th, 2013, 01:23 AM
Hi.

With Saul's fate, the "purpose" Burt has to serve, and finally the very good cooperation between both of them, who else sees potential for a tag-team-sacrifice in the final battle like Saul and Burt vs. Ink and Randy?

"No sacrifice, no glory." - the old Witwicky saying:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080125220345/transformers/images/d/d0/Archibald_Witwicky_movie.JPG

7oddisdead
Oct 30th, 2013, 03:41 AM
ive noticed a few people wanting to sprinkle skittles into a semi-major role into the story. well, bad news, true believers...but the character of skittles is limited by the actor portraying him. while I have no idea what bob bergens schedule looks like, I do know hes a busy man. I would not rely on skittles to play a major factor in the story more than what has already happened. will we see him again? hopefully...in a repeating role?doubtful....thems the breaks, kid.


eckselsior!!!

*edit*
but if you like bobs voice acting, and pretty good interviews, theres a recent interview with him on TWiT's triangulation.

http://twit.tv/show/triangulation/122

that link wasn't working for me at the moment, but search in iTunes..should be easy enough to find

ZombieWildfire
Oct 30th, 2013, 07:00 AM
Wow, what an episode. I had to listen to it three times just to take it all in.

I'm left genuinely saddened by the Tanya/Saul news. I know its early days and its too early to assume the worst, but still... And its indicative of just how good a series this is that I was left actually emotionally bereft at that bit.

The FO on the bottle... if its the start of a word only, could it be the beginning of simply Formula of Formulation. Might make sense coming from a pharmaceutical company.

And is it just me who thinks that the way Kelly says "Good luck with that" at the end is really creepy? I was never really a proponent of the Kelly-As-Rat theory, but the way she said that just made me think that she knows something awful is going to happen.

Hxx

Witch_Doctor
Oct 30th, 2013, 07:29 AM
Someone mentioned that Skittles may have stopped responding to Duncan because that is not his real name and that he was working for the Maller's under the assumed name of Duncan. I doubt this is likely because other people working for the Mallers used their own name e.g. Kalani and Pippin. Only the main Mallers in the story have street names, like Scratch, Latch, Bricks, and Tardust (Well, there is the Red Shirt Puck). The rest have names like 1950s greasers e.g. Charlie, Poncho and Johnny. I'm guessing Durai is a proper name, but I've read on the forum that it means Chief in another language.

Also, he can't even remember his name when encountering Angel and Kalani. Although, it is odd that Kalani would deny knowing him, since he could corroborate his stay at CJ's Tower.

As for him being in cahoots with TOWTM, he seems incredibly devastated by the attack. I think the biggest mystery here is why he wasn't attacked by TOWTM & company.

Witch_Doctor
Oct 30th, 2013, 07:36 AM
I'm left genuinely saddened by the Tanya/Saul news. I know its early days and its too early to assume the worst, but still... And its indicative of just how good a series this is that I was left actually emotionally bereft at that bit.
And is it just me who thinks that the way Kelly says "Good luck with that" at the end is really creepy? I was never really a proponent of the Kelly-As-Rat theory, but the way she said that just made me think that she knows something awful is going to happen.

Hxx

Yes, Kelly's comment did sound ominous. Tanya and Saul's situation remind me accounts of people who just found out that they are H.I.V. positive. They have an incurable disease, may very well die from it, and people will be very afraid of them if they find out.

FunkyDung
Oct 30th, 2013, 07:57 AM
After listening to this episode my brain went on this wild tangent theory, which basically was: Skittles and Randy are the same person.

That's a tempting thought, and one of my crack-addled theories is that the bearded and tattooed zombie spotted by Victor during the attack on the Colony was Skittles, not Randy. However, I don't think they can be the same person. CJ knew both of them. She sent Randy to the water works and knew Duncan was on the security duty roster.

Footbutt
Oct 30th, 2013, 08:02 AM
Yes, Kelly's comment did sound ominous. Tanya and Saul's situation remind me accounts of people who just found out that they are H.I.V. positive. They have an incurable disease, may very well die from it, and people will be very afraid of them if they find out.


i'm sorry, but all i could think of is this scene from South Park:

http://youtu.be/ctCmugiWVB0
http://youtu.be/ctCmugiWVB0

Storm
Oct 30th, 2013, 08:16 AM
And is it just me who thinks that the way Kelly says "Good luck with that" at the end is really creepy? I was never really a proponent of the Kelly-As-Rat theory, but the way she said that just made me think that she knows something awful is going to happen.

Hxx

I thought I just put too much into it... But yeah, it sounds... creepy, for lack of better Word. I'm not sure I think she knows something, though... Besides, hasn't she always been just a bit negative? :)
Kelly is... Well, Kelly is Kelly!

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 30th, 2013, 10:18 AM
Hi.

With Saul's fate, the "purpose" Burt has to serve, and finally the very good cooperation between both of them, who else sees potential for a tag-team-sacrifice in the final battle like Saul and Burt vs. Ink and Randy?

"No sacrifice, no glory." - the old Witwicky saying:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080125220345/transformers/images/d/d0/Archibald_Witwicky_movie.JPG

Awww, that movie killed too many brain cells.

LiamKerrington
Oct 30th, 2013, 10:40 AM
Awww, that movie killed too many brain cells.

That's why it is is suitable to be quoted in the context of all things zombies ...

Unit
Oct 30th, 2013, 11:08 AM
Go hunting for a couple weeks and I start going through We're Alive withdrawals haha. I haven't gone back to read the forums for the last two episodes so sorry if this has all been brought up before....

Unit
Oct 30th, 2013, 11:09 AM
Also bummed we haven't heard from Burt or Riley yet in these episodes. We are supposedly 4 months into their adventure now, there must be some stories to share.

Witch_Doctor
Oct 30th, 2013, 11:46 AM
That is a good point about not telling CJ of their plans. Micheal is the same way but we can see his reason. Maybe she would think it's a waste of time or resources. Who knows. I wonder how many...

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 30th, 2013, 11:47 AM
Maybe the time has come for some serious biomass gasification indeed...

Grognaurd
Oct 30th, 2013, 12:18 PM
When doomsday hits, logistics is the problem. Biodiesel is made by reacting oil with sodium hydroxide. So, where are they going to get that? They would just be chasing another resource.

I still think that Michael's super journal is not about the zombie outbreak. It is about the characters he was with. Something goes down that really rocks his sanity even more so than TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It).

Witch_Doctor
Oct 30th, 2013, 12:43 PM
TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It).

And here I am thinking that you discovered some sort of Aztec connection. O_o

Cabbage Patch
Oct 30th, 2013, 01:37 PM
Raydon Corporation is indeed a significant military contractor. They build weapons simulators and they make all of the convoy simulators that the Army uses. They're located in Florida. ...

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 30th, 2013, 02:02 PM
Just to add to the fun, at this point in the story gasoline supplies are nearing the end of their shelf life. Gasoline breaks down and loses potency over time, eventually reaching a point where it just isn't volatile enough to power machines. Normal shelf life is up to one year, or up to two years if treated with chemical stabilizers. Diesel has a much longer shelf life, but it is also more susceptible to contamination from water, which forms in storage tanks through condensation. Bottom line, at some point all of the stored fuel in the WA universe will stop working so they need to start working on alternatives!

Let's add some names and a radical idea: TMGG (The Matta-Gun Guy), Glenn, ingenuity and cold fusion. Think. Think again. And then pray that Datu did never see this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpiVyTYn0Sg

Btw, is the reactor (?) in this video just a prop ... what is Dennis doing during his retirement?

Grognaurd
Oct 30th, 2013, 02:14 PM
/sigh

Ah ah ah bulllllssshhhhnnnneeeese

Gooer
Oct 30th, 2013, 02:29 PM
Wait.......Saul and Tanya might be infected, and not immune......THEY MIGHT DIE? KC WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN?!?!! Also, gotta love Michael for sparking up the relationship with Pegs again.....Who da man?

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 30th, 2013, 02:50 PM
Wait.......Saul and Tanya might be infected, and not immune......THEY MIGHT DIE? KC WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN?!?!! Also, gotta love Michael for sparking up the relationship with Pegs again.....Who da man?

The idea of Tanya and Saul turning keeps nagging at me, too. :)

Unit
Oct 30th, 2013, 03:37 PM
When doomsday hits, logistics is the problem. Biodiesel is made by reacting oil with sodium hydroxide. So, where are they going to get that? They would just be chasing another resource.

Agreed, like I said it would be a temporary fix, but as diesel becomes harder to find or starts to break down like you mention, then oil and sodium hydroxide may become easier to find than usable diesel fuel.

You can also convert diesel engines to run off straight vegetable oil, you do need to heat the tank to get the oil to the right temp, but it would be very doable even in a doomsday scenario with supplies that I'm sure could be found in LA... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D157-bJtY08&noredirect=1

7oddisdead
Oct 30th, 2013, 04:49 PM
Even with vegtable oil, consumption becomes a problem. A small diesel motor can run for quite a while on a small amount, but larger motors/machinery will require considerably more..thus defeating the purpose.

Cabbage Patch
Oct 30th, 2013, 07:41 PM
Maybe the time has come for some serious biomass gasification indeed...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Karjalohjaja_h%C3%A4k%C3%A4p%C3%B6ntt%C3%B6_2.4.20 10_003.jpg/800px-Karjalohjaja_h%C3%A4k%C3%A4p%C3%B6ntt%C3%B6_2.4.20 10_003.jpg

I've heard about this process; wasn't it fairly widespread in Germany during WWII? The hardware looks readily accessible, and the fuel supply is literally springing up all over at this point in the story. I wouldn't want to have outrun a behemoth in one of these, but it sure beats walking!

YetAnotherBloodyCheek
Oct 31st, 2013, 12:15 AM
I've heard about this process; wasn't it fairly widespread in Germany during WWII? The hardware looks readily accessible, and the fuel supply is literally springing up all over at this point in the story. I wouldn't want to have outrun a behemoth in one of these, but it sure beats walking!

That's correct and there had been attempts of coal liquefaction.

LiamKerrington
Oct 31st, 2013, 12:35 AM
Also bummed we haven't heard from Burt or Riley yet in these episodes. We are supposedly 4 months into their adventure now, there must be some stories to share.

I don't expect to hear from them earlier than #40 if not #41 ... But I may be wrong. And I hope I am, because I am SO CURIOUS about what is going on with them ...

Red Shirt
Oct 31st, 2013, 12:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0YWRXJsMyM



and another thing..if the levels of keratin rise to high levels during the change...what happens to it after? if it goes back down, it must be being processed in some way? you cant explain away something like that via osmosis ...or whatever. perhaps that's something we should all explore. RED SHIRT! YOU HAVE AN ASSIGNMENT!


So increases in K-18 may not just be a by-product of the growth, but in an internal feedback loop help continue the growth of tissues in the body.

Holy mother of Mary - and some other guy... I don't remember. Biology class was so long ago... and I only took Bio-I in High School. This is some serious collegiate level Biology/BioChem action here. Sincere apologies to those of you who may read this who are Biologists and Biochemists by training and trade, but let me see if I can unpack this...

Let me start from the top down:
(Sections in italics are direct copy/paste quotes taken right from the wiki.)


Animals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metazoa) are multicellular, eukaryotic organisms of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa. Cells that make up animals are metazoan cells and inside the cells is a:
Cytoskeleton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoskeletal). "The cytoskeleton (also CSK) is a cellular scaffolding or skeleton contained within a cell's cytoplasm... It forms structures such as flagella, cilia and lamellipodia and plays important roles in both intracellular transport (the movement of vesicles and organelles, for example) and cellular division... The cytoskeleton provides the cell with structure and shape" The cytoskeleton is comprised of several things, including:
Intermediate filaments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_filaments). "Intermediate filaments (IFs) are cytoskeletal components found in metazoan cells." There are two types present, Type 1 and Type II. Type I is comprised of:
Type I keratin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_cytokeratin). "Type I keratins (or Type I cytokeratins) constitutes the Type I intermediate filaments (IFs) of the intracytoplasmatic cytoskeleton, which is present in all mammalian epithelial cells. Most of the type I keratins consist of acidic, low molecular weight proteins." Among the Type I keratins is:
Keratin 18 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin_18). "Keratin 18 is a type I cytokeratin. It is, together with its filament partner keratin 8, perhaps the most commonly found products of the intermediate filament gene family. They are expressed in single layer epithelial tissues of the body." Epithelial tissues or;
Epithelium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithelial_tissue), is one of the four basic types of animal tissue, along with connective tissue, muscle tissue and nervous tissue. Epithelial tissues line the cavities and surfaces of structures throughout the body, and also form many glands. The primary functions of epithelial tissues are: (1) to protect the tissues that lie beneath it from radiation, desiccation, toxins, invasion by pathogens, and physical trauma; (2) the regulation and exchange of chemicals between the underlying tissues and a body cavity; (3) the secretion of hormones into the blood vascular system, and/or the secretion of sweat, mucus, enzymes, and other products that are delivered by ducts glandular epithelium; (4) to provide sensation.

You got it right, cupcakezombie. I was wrong about my initial assumptions. The K18 isn't a byproduct of the growth, it IS the growth. What ever it is that is causing the "zombification," it radically changes the structure of the human body right down to (at least) the sub cellular level:


Body morphology, as seen with the differing forms of infected at the outset of the story.
Glandular and hormonal, as seen with the salivating infected during the sweat jar experiment.
Glandular with the salivary glands used to spread the infection...
"Invasion by pathogens," changing the susceptibility of infection, possibly explaining the extreme speed at which the victims succumbed and a reason why the very thing that may have sparked the change, the Inglewood Haze, is also now toxic to them.
Behavioral changes with altered adrenal glands and radically changed hormones... resulting in obscene animalistic rage, aggression and hunger.
Body morphology also affected by hormones. Tanya states (I believe) "under developed" secondary sexual characteristics in a female specimen... I do believe that a side effect of increased testosterone in women, e.g.: women bodybuilders taking male HGH and/or testosterone, is breast tissue shrinks.

It is probably obvious with the existence of the special infected, but it bears saying that these things aren't just humans with a fever rage. For all appearances, these creatures seem to have been rebuilt at the cellular level into something new... they look mostly human-ish but they most certainly are NOT. Not anymore.

7oddisdead, back to your question, where does the K18 go? I see three possibilities, the first being that K18 as a cellular building block gets used up at the tail end of the "turning." Second, the blood gets processed by the kidneys and K18 and its byproducts are eliminated in urine. Third: at the core of it, K18 is protein which is also processed by the liver.

Now, I have heard stories of extreme body builders suffering liver failure. Protein toxicity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_toxicity) can also cause kidney failure. We have also learned that K18 is (apparently) a testable marker for cancer. I'll bet that's what is killing the behemoths. Because they are so large, it is reasonable to assume that their K18 spike during turning was significantly higher which led to inevitable kidney & liver failure, cirrhosis and cancer.

Homework for Tanya: examine the pathology of the liver and get a urine sample(s) of a turner. Check the results for indicators of kidney failure.

Which leads into another theory, the one of Saul and Tanya's perceived "immunity." Just want to add this one to the stuff we are already throwing at the wall...
Since they now seem to be testing Z+, my previous Anthrax/Smallpox vaccine cocktail seems to have been falsified. Saul and Tanya might have a genetic disposition to develop cancer and due to that particular gene sequence mutation, it prevents the changes from occurring due to the connection that K18 has with cancer.


I always assumed the description of the stretch marks indicated very rapid growth of the body such that the skin couldn't keep up. I'd like to throw out there that it might also be HGH (human growth hormone) that was included in whatever "treatment" the big guys got to become behemoths. Steroids, HGH, or whatever - I think the behemoths were one of the evolutionary/intelligent design steps in the creation of the Little Ones (and anything that might be around after those guys....)

Don't forget the acne. Angel pointed that out too. I do believe that acne is also a side effect of steroid use as well as ordinary growth (hormonal changes of puberty). With what I mention above with the baseline of the physiological changes of "zombification," you have the possibility for radical hormonal changes coupled with the possibility of what is taking place in TOWTM's workshop of horrors with a drug/steroid/haze essence cocktail. My theories on that here (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?4714-Wnd-55&p=63145&viewfull=1#post63145) and here (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?3310-quot-Ink-quot-the-origin-and-meaning-of-his-tattoos&p=63627#post63627).



Doom.. The Greatest Video Game Series of All Time.. Movie was ok but not what I would have thought a Doom movie should be..

Agreed. I was a little surprised by the direction they took with the 24th Chromosome... I was expecting the Jump Gate (to hell) that was probably inspired by Stephen King's "The Jaunt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jaunt)." Then again, Event Horizon kinda got the jump on them with the Hyperspace Is a Scary Place (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HyperspaceIsAScaryPlace) theme.


Does anyone remember Skittles warning about going to lab or doctor areas?

Yes, when he's educating Angel and Kalani about the different types of biters, he tells them to stay away from those kinds of areas because that's where the 'brains' (as he calls them) hang around. I don't think this was done out of any desire to keep them from uncovering any sort of conspiracy, rather Skittles just knew that the smart-biters were near impossible to escape from, and so wanted to forewarn them against going to any place where they might be.

I seem to recall he mentioned Libraries and Hospitals... or was more likely stated as the Book and Doctor places, then the "Brain Places."

Alright, time to hit send. I have more thoughts but that will have to wait until tomorrow night. On Halloween... dun dun DUN!

7oddisdead
Oct 31st, 2013, 02:21 AM
Holy mother of Mary - and some other guy... I don't remember. Biology class was so long ago... and I only took Bio-I in High School. This is some serious collegiate level Biology/BioChem action here. Sincere apologies to those of you who may read this who are Biologists and Biochemists by training and trade, but let me see if I can unpack this..
[/LIST]
You got it right, cupcakezombie. I was wrong about my initial assumptions. The K18 isn't a byproduct of the growth, it IS the growth. What ever it is that is causing the "zombification," it radically changes the structure of the human body right down to (at least) the sub cellular level:


Body morphology, as seen with the differing forms of infected at the outset of the story.
Glandular and hormonal, as seen with the salivating infected during the sweat jar experiment.
Glandular with the salivary glands used to spread the infection...
"Invasion by pathogens," changing the susceptibility of infection, possibly explaining the extreme speed at which the victims succumbed and a reason why the very thing that may have sparked the change, the Inglewood Haze, is also now toxic to them.
Behavioral changes with altered adrenal glands and radically changed hormones... resulting in obscene animalistic rage, aggression and hunger.
Body morphology also affected by hormones. Tanya states (I believe) "under developed" secondary sexual characteristics in a female specimen... I do believe that a side effect of increased testosterone in women, e.g.: women bodybuilders taking male HGH and/or testosterone, is breast tissue shrinks.

It is probably obvious with the existence of the special infected, but it bears saying that these things aren't just humans with a fever rage. For all appearances, these creatures seem to have been rebuilt at the cellular level into something new... they look mostly human-ish but they most certainly are NOT. Not anymore.

7oddisdead, back to your question, where does the K18 go? I see three possibilities, the first being that K18 as a cellular building block gets used up at the tail end of the "turning." Second, the blood gets processed by the kidneys and K18 and its byproducts are eliminated in urine. Third: at the core of it, K18 is protein which is also processed by the liver.

Now, I have heard stories of extreme body builders suffering liver failure. Protein toxicity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_toxicity) can also cause kidney failure. We have also learned that K18 is (apparently) a testable marker for cancer. I'll bet that's what is killing the behemoths. Because they are so large, it is reasonable to assume that their K18 spike during turning was significantly higher which led to inevitable kidney & liver failure, cirrhosis and cancer.

Homework for Tanya: examine the pathology of the liver and get a urine sample(s) of a turner. Check the results for indicators of kidney failure.

Alright, time to hit send. I have more thoughts but that will have to wait until tomorrow night. On Halloween... dun dun DUN!

firstly, the jaunt and event horizon are probly my two favorite sci fi pieces...without a doubt. that said....




wow, son. you get an A+ on your assignment. I cut to the bits I found the most interesting. it would seem we can pinpoint our searches into the "internal changes" to the liver and kidneys. what makes me so sure about those? well, lets explore the thyroid system.

https://www.google.com/#q=thyroid%20physiology

a ton of interesting reading in there. I simply went with the google search in this case because it would fill nearly an entire page to take notes of all the references. I believe the most important bits I took from this search is the thyroid gland essentially feeds the liver and kidneys. the t3 and t4 production from the thyroid feeds not only the liver and kidneys, but the hypothalamus and pituitary gland...quite interesting stuff...DAMN YOU KC, I HATED THIS STUFF IN HIGH SCHOOL....NOW I LIKE IT. YOUR A JERK :)

going further down the rabbithole...we could search for this.

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/110/1/23.full.pdf

that one,admittedly..is a shit ton of science stuff to get through. but it also vaguely wraps its way around what could cause K18 levels to increase and decrease. its also a billion light years over my head/pay grade...I don't analyse what I don't understand, I simply present and point in a general direction...theory team, go!!(guys is it wrong that I think of myself as the "think tank" and you guys as the executioners? can't help it...I do)

back on track. I like your explanation of where the k18's go, red. particularly the idea of the keratins used as a building block for whatever changes are taking place. the fun part of this idea is THERE'S NO LEGIT SCIENCE-Y WAY TO PROVE IT. is there?

I suppose that's the one thing we all should keep in mind. at some point this part of the story (the science of zombies) MUST go from science fact, to science fiction. but at what point does that happen? how many different avenues of the "k18 quandary" can we explore before we get to the shit KC has just made up? how many unknown variables must we plug in and "solve for x" before we reach a point where we are giving other writers ideas? I don't know. I do know however, this has been quite fun...hopefully it continues to be.

have fun...or else
todd out

7oddisdead
Oct 31st, 2013, 03:28 AM
fuck it...im up and the noodle is firing..the stream of consciousness time.

I forgot to mention in my first post, good thinking on the kidney failure red. if what we are thinking here is correct, the basic function of the kidneys should be mostly nonexsistant. so kidney failure would be evident, as they have likely been assimilated to divert function to both the hypothalamus and liver. man, I would lave to at least have a hint as to what Tanya found internally in wendy...this shit really is fascinating.

so with the ideas of thyroid gland in mind, lets explore the metabolism of the biter. have we been given any indication of how the bodily functions of our zombies work? by that I am of course referring to shit and piss. (or to be more p.c. poop and pee. heh... "pee"). the way the human body processes its intake is fairly well understood by most of us. a good diet yields good physical fitness in most of us, a bad one? well, I think we all know of what that can cause. now, knowing that the thyroid controls the way our bodies process the intake of "raw goods"(dictating what goes where, the engery used to process, and the energy expelled from its processing)..would it not stand to reason that the intake of a 100% protein diet (ie: human flesh) would throw the metabolism and susquently the entire body into some sort of "abandon all ships" state? internal changes to the structure by which the body processes incoming material would have to see a subnificant change to acommidate for this. does the body change the entire way it structures its internal functions or simply swap out to a different form of metabolizing proteins? just think if all you ate was red meat, how would your body react?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health/red-meat-shorten-lifespan/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/dailydose/11/19/DD.red.meat.metabolic.syndrome/

now,of course those two studies are in us common humans. but how would those studies change if we actually plugged in the idea of a "zombie"?
to me, this entire idea of the K18 increase triggering a change within the body is simply establiching a change within the body to accomidate for the dietary change of one subsisting on nothing but protein and h20 (and iron, and....well, the other bits found in meat).

now, the fun stuff. red shirt brought up the idea of basic "protein poisoning" among body builders. that, coupled with the tumors, coupled with the keratin level increases....well, it just confirms our suspicions. be it steroids or hgh...I think we have this one on lock. next on the agenda little ones.

how much you want to bet the little ones, if they ever were in fact human...had their keratin levels remain intact, or even raised post-turning? ill bet a four pack of this http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/423/39621 that's the case. (damn, I need to learn to hyper link)


this episode of brain farting brought to you by "the sixth glass"

again, have fun...or else
todd-o

Witch_Doctor
Oct 31st, 2013, 07:07 AM
Wow! Poor old Witch Doctor's head is spinning (like Reagan's). This is a far cry from tea leaves, chicken bones and puffer fish. Gonna take me a while to go through this.

Grognaurd
Oct 31st, 2013, 09:42 AM
It's probably time for Michael to share the intel about the Long Beach "Naval Base" that the scouting team from Fort Irwin gathered. They reported that the base was "clear", so it might be worth searching it for for weapons and ammo.

A resupply node for an amphibious assault carrier would have them sitting pretty

LiamKerrington
Oct 31st, 2013, 09:43 AM
Hi.

I liked your wall of words, although I did not read them. But sure as hell they are great.

Big question:

Since Kelly is involved in the theoretical paperwork, and since Kelly is able to "read" other people (she knew something was fishy about Amy back right before Marcus was overthrown ...), what does she know about the 'numbers' related to Tanya and Saul? What are her conclusions? Will she be silent about it, or will she accidentally or purposefully start any rumors about them?

Best wishes!
Liam

Grognaurd
Oct 31st, 2013, 10:02 AM
And is it just me who thinks that the way Kelly says "Good luck with that" at the end is really creepy? I was never really a proponent of the Kelly-As-Rat theory, but the way she said that just made me think that she knows something awful is going to happen.

Hxx

KC had some ominous music there, also. I do not quite understand it. "Good Luck!" Seems right, but in my slang, "With That" is usually a sarcastic tag. Is she insulting military intelligence, again?

She thought journals to figure out what is going on with the outbreak were a waste of time. Michael with Lizzy's help overruled her in Season 1

In season 4, she says a lot of similar stuff.

The army comedy duo is not the brightest bunch and You need my thinking skills to Michael
Maybe that is why I am here (Tanya may have missed something)
Her argument with Victor behind the door

Grognaurd
Oct 31st, 2013, 10:23 AM
wow, son. you get an A+

we all should keep in mind. at some point this part of the story (the science of zombies) MUST go from science fact, to science fiction. but at what point does that happen?

have fun...or else
todd out

We have all been there and seen the science of science fiction FAIL...

THIS IS NOT THAT DAY!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXGUNvIFTQw&feature

Witch_Doctor
Oct 31st, 2013, 11:03 AM
So, I looked around the internets and found that we're not the first to have a discussion on zombies and keratin. Here is a link from June, 2009. http://armorgames.com/community/thread/1318445/the-zombie-survival-club-basic-rules-on-page-144/page/318
I think it is a gamer site. The first post about keratin is the last on the page, and continues onto the next page. It doesn't get very far into the science as RedGrog7odd does, (seriously? My spell checker didn't flag RedGrog7odd?) but the suggestion was brought up by a biology student at Yale.

I was trying to see if there was any source or theories that KC could have gotten ideas from.

Anyway, whatever this cryptogenic disease is, it only effects human biology.

scbubba
Oct 31st, 2013, 12:05 PM
Hi.

I liked your wall of words, although I did not read them. But sure as hell they are great.

Big question:

Since Kelly is involved in the theoretical paperwork, and since Kelly is able to "read" other people (she knew something was fishy about Amy back right before Marcus was overthrown ...), what does she know about the 'numbers' related to Tanya and Saul? What are her conclusions? Will she be silent about it, or will she accidentally or purposefully start any rumors about them?

Best wishes!
Liam

Did Tanya include the tests she ran on her blood or Saul's blood in the notes/journals? I didn't hear it stated that she did. I'm also getting a stronger and stronger itch at the base of my skull the more I think that Tanya has not done any journaling that we know of.....

scbubba
Oct 31st, 2013, 12:15 PM
KC had some ominous music there, also. I do not quite understand it. "Good Luck!" Seems right, but in my slang, "With That" is usually a sarcastic tag. Is she insulting military intelligence, again?

She thought journals to figure out what is going on with the outbreak were a waste of time. Michael with Lizzy's help overruled her in Season 1

In season 4, she says a lot of similar stuff.

The army comedy duo is not the brightest bunch and You need my thinking skills to Michael
Maybe that is why I am here (Tanya may have missed something)
Her argument with Victor behind the door

Her statement does sound a little creepy but on later listening I attribute it to her overdeveloped cynicism and sarcasm. Like she's saying "That's a big f'n effort and I'm glad I'm not involved" or "I don't think that's got a chance in hell of succeeding".

But then, I've been wrong about Kelly before...

Footbutt
Oct 31st, 2013, 12:47 PM
very good point. She did have a lot to hide/mask/shield about, but she was mainly in charge of cataloging and research, right? <br />
i want to and don't want to read into the fact that i haven't hear a...

UndeadSweeper
Oct 31st, 2013, 02:50 PM
She can't hide much from Micheal, Reilly, and the army boys. They all know about the bite and her being separate from the rest of the base for a time. If anything Micheal is going to defense Tanya...

Unit
Oct 31st, 2013, 09:32 PM
She can't hide much from Micheal, Reilly, and the army boys. They all know about the bite and her being separate from the rest of the base for a time. If anything Micheal is going to defense Tanya and Saul with full force.

I don't know, Michael has become a bit of a pushover to CJ lately. We all want the strong, leader Michael to come out to his friends defense, but if CJ throws out that Saul and Tanya would need to be exiled for their own protection; to keep the other colony members from killing them just to be sure and for their own safety, Michael will nod his head in agreement and get back in line.

I don't feel the same fight in Michael like he used to have.

LiamKerrington
Nov 1st, 2013, 12:14 AM
Did Tanya include the tests she ran on her blood or Saul's blood in the notes/journals? I didn't hear it stated that she did. I'm also getting a stronger and stronger itch at the base of my skull the more I think that Tanya has not done any journaling that we know of.....

That's exactly my question. Does Tanya only work on the journal-material? Or is she - to a certain degree - involved in more paperwork. Although some dispute this, lawyers are in the end academics and thus skilled in working with scientific methods. So I ask, if Tanya uses this potential or keeps it totally under her control?

Red Shirt
Nov 1st, 2013, 02:29 AM
Thanks goes everybody for the HUGE support of my research and my throwing of ideas at walls.
Now, with my "inbox" asploding when I log in to the desktop site, I've noticed that I have killed a jumper, (yay me!) I'm a "Hoarder" now and I'm Loved to Death (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD5No_JRrZw). Cool.


Now, for a moment I'd like to shift gears and talk about a few other things:

The first is the ammo situation. It has been discussed here on the boards, on We're Not Dead, and more recently on the WND Fan Cast with the situation now being directly addressed in show. Mick & Red, you discussed the issues with making your own powder, a non-trivial issue. What about the Naval Station? It has the potential to solve many current problems. Probably plenty of small arms and its ammo, more hummers (all you gotta do is jump them off), probably some fuel... hell, if they are lucky they could even stumble on a truck mounted Phalanx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM). (Though I'll readily admit that one falls squarely in the Deus Ex Machina category.)

Barring all of that if it turns out to be a bust, there is still one thing they may find to be useful. Shells for large naval guns, maybe powder bags. Attempting to "open" a five inch shell for a naval gun is, frankly, a stupid idea. I'd rather try to cut open a 16 inch gun powder bag. May not be exactly the type of powder needed but with a stash of those... well, powder until the end of time. Now, the last of the Iowa class were stricken from the Naval Vessel Register on March 17th, 2006, but the USS Iowa was retained in the Reserve Fleet until October of 2011. It stands to reason that the navy was maintaining a reserve supply of munitions for the big guns.

Now, about the fuel. I gotta ask, is the colony just too far to go back to the tank farm?

That's enough for now, but as a parting shot I'll leave you with this. From the Science news segment of the Skeptic's Guide of the Universe (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/), episode #432 October 26th 2013, (@8:20) they discus a recent development in antibiotics called PPMO's or peptide-conjugated phosphorodiamidate morpholino oligomer. Gesundheit. Current antibiotics fall into two categories: bactericidal which kill bacteria and bacteriostatic which prevent them from reproducing. Both function by disrupting cellular function. PPMO's may become a third class of antibiotics.


PPMO's are a synthetic analog of DNA or RNA that has the ability to silence the expression of specific genes. Compared to conventional antibiotics, which are often found in nature, PPMOs are completely synthesized in the laboratory with a specific genetic target in mind.

PPMO's have been found to be in many cases far more effective than existing antibiotics and found effective against resistant bacteria. PPMO's can also be used to treat genetic diseases.

SGU Episode (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/432)
Article (http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2013/oct/beyond-antibiotics-%E2%80%9Cppmos%E2%80%9D-offer-new-approach-bacterial-infection)


Precision targeted gene suppression. What could possibly go wrong?
Sounds like something a particular pharmaceutical company might have been interested in. :tinfoil:

7oddisdead
Nov 1st, 2013, 03:40 AM
Every morning I think people "like" me with like alerts.

love the sgu, that piece on ppmo's was really interesting....shit I'd love to get a novella bros take on whats happening in this story. People think WE post over-the-top craziness...

Duffusmonkey
Nov 1st, 2013, 04:01 AM
Saul and Tanya are not Turning they are the next evolution of mankind,

Habilus Man
Erectus Man
Neanderthal Man
Modern Man
Tink Man!

http://podcastnerd.com/Images/TINKMAN.jpg

Grognaurd
Nov 1st, 2013, 05:46 AM
Redshirt, they still will need primers. I do not know how universal those are or if there is a standard big rifle primer.

scbubba
Nov 1st, 2013, 05:49 AM
Thanks goes everybody for the HUGE support of my research and my throwing of ideas at walls.
Now, with my "inbox" asploding when I log in to the desktop site, I've noticed that I have killed a jumper, (yay me!) I'm a "Hoarder" now and I'm Loved to Death (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD5No_JRrZw). Cool.

That's just cuz you're awesome, dude! :)


Now, for a moment I'd like to shift gears and talk about a few other things:

The first is the ammo situation. It has been discussed here on the boards, on We're Not Dead, and more recently on the WND Fan Cast with the situation now being directly addressed in show. Mick & Red, you discussed the issues with making your own powder, a non-trivial issue. What about the Naval Station? It has the potential to solve many current problems. Probably plenty of small arms and its ammo, more hummers (all you gotta do is jump them off), probably some fuel... hell, if they are lucky they could even stumble on a truck mounted Phalanx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM). (Though I'll readily admit that one falls squarely in the Deus Ex Machina category.)

Barring all of that if it turns out to be a bust, there is still one thing they may find to be useful. Shells for large naval guns, maybe powder bags. Attempting to "open" a five inch shell for a naval gun is, frankly, a stupid idea. I'd rather try to cut open a 16 inch gun powder bag. May not be exactly the type of powder needed but with a stash of those... well, powder until the end of time. Now, the last of the Iowa class were stricken from the Naval Vessel Register on March 17th, 2006, but the USS Iowa was retained in the Reserve Fleet until October of 2011. It stands to reason that the navy was maintaining a reserve supply of munitions for the big guns.

Now, about the fuel. I gotta ask, is the colony just too far to go back to the tank farm?

I've been thinking about the ammo situation since Season 4 started. At first it was concerning the minigun since it chews up ammo so damn fast. It eats 7.62 rounds which most of the other weapons don't. Then I thought of the the .50 cal machine guns, which use a different round (but more rare in that it wouldn't be available for scavenge in civilian locations mostly). The the small arms: 5.56 for the soldiers rifles and a collection of 9mm and other assorted calibers for handguns and the (probably rare) submachineguns.

A couple of things popped into my mind: 1) I could get pretty easy access to everything on that list other than the .50 by scavenging in a 10 mile radius of my house. 2) Unless it was during a supply scare for ammo like we had for almost the past year. 3) I don't live in a major metropolitan area in California - I live in a place that has some of the highest private gun ownership in the free world.

As someone else pointed out before (sorry I can't find the post right now), leading up to May 2009, there was a nationwide ammo shortage. It was hard to find everything from .22LR to popular hunting caliber (.308/7.63, .30-06, .243, .270, etc) and all the handgun calibers (9mm, .45 ACP, .38, .357, etc).

So the supply of ammo in commercial locations would have been low in general due to the shortage. The number of commercial places that sell ammo in LA is (IIRC) fairly small in general (a current yellow pages search turned up less than 2 dozen places in LA). And we have a year's worth of time for people to collect and use the existing ammo. So, yeah, the "private sector" in the area is pretty well tapped out, I'm thinking.

So the military locations. Other than the base that Michael mentioned (Navy base, right) and the National Guard base (which has long since been empties), we don't know the state of any other potential military supply locations. I'm guessing that Michael and Co haven't made a visit to any of these military locations in Season 4 but I wonder what they might find if they did... If the zombie opposition is so very smart AND observing Team Human's activities (and I think they are), would they recognize the push to resupply at a military location and seek to deny the humans access to the location/supplies?

As for access to reloading supplies, powder might be the easiest of the materials to come up with. Brass could be in decent supply depending on how much of their own they have saved. The primers are going to be the kicker there. During this year's ammo shortage, primers were one of the 1st reloading materials that I saw go into short supply. And given Cali's general low ownership of firearms (compared to most of the rest of the US) I would think that the general availability of primers would be really low in May 2009 in LA.

To the best of my knowledge, the US military doesn't do much if any reloading (Cabbage Patch, any info on this?) so I would think that there wouldn't be a supply of primers for any caliber available at any of the military locations.

Basically, reloading probably isn't as easy as you might think it would be for the characters.

EDIT: And while I'm typing, Grog snipes me with a short and to the point post... ;)


That's enough for now, but as a parting shot I'll leave you with this. From the Science news segment of the Skeptic's Guide of the Universe (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/), episode #432 October 26th 2013, (@8:20) they discus a recent development in antibiotics called PPMO's or peptide-conjugated phosphorodiamidate morpholino oligomer. Gesundheit. Current antibiotics fall into two categories: bactericidal which kill bacteria and bacteriostatic which prevent them from reproducing. Both function by disrupting cellular function. PPMO's may become a third class of antibiotics.

PPMO's have been found to be in many cases far more effective than existing antibiotics and found effective against resistant bacteria. PPMO's can also be used to treat genetic diseases.

SGU Episode (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/432)
Article (http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2013/oct/beyond-antibiotics-%E2%80%9Cppmos%E2%80%9D-offer-new-approach-bacterial-infection)

Precision targeted gene suppression. What could possibly go wrong?
Sounds like something a particular pharmaceutical company might have been interested in. :tinfoil:

Uhhh, yeah. What Red Shirt said. Most of that went over my head by I get where you are going, I think. Start playing God of the Genome and things probably get bad....

Grognaurd
Nov 1st, 2013, 06:15 AM
We are the hive, eh bubba etal :)

Speaking of hive. All through out history humans have thought ants kick ass. How cool would it be to have an ant army? Achilles was a kick ass warrior in an of himself, but he led the Myrmidons. They were the greatest Warrior people because they are descended from ants. Even the name is ant people or ant nest.

So, my point on a Friday is to reinforce we are the hive.

LiamKerrington
Nov 1st, 2013, 06:32 AM
So, a question here: <br />
<br />
What, if everyone turns towards the shotgun - whatever type from sawed-off over double-barrel to pump-action or even combat shotgun ... Wouldn't it be kind of easy to &quot;create&quot;...

Grognaurd
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:31 AM
If it was me, I go get the stuff that works. That means an amphibious resupply package. If that is not there, then I start to get creative.

It is a logistics problem that armies have had forever and they know how to solve it. Leverage what works and hit up a resupply node. I know the POMCUS have been decommissioned in Europe, but the navy and marines have to have something similar these days.

http://wikimapia.org/26690515/Former-US-POMCUS-Site

UndeadSweeper
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:46 AM
I don't know, Michael has become a bit of a pushover to CJ lately. We all want the strong, leader Michael to come out to his friends defense, but if CJ throws out that Saul and Tanya would need to be exiled for their own protection; to keep the other colony members from killing them just to be sure and for their own safety, Michael will nod his head in agreement and get back in line.

I don't feel the same fight in Michael like he used to have.

I think we are confusing meekness for a pushover. We need to remember Michael is a soldier and a commander of soldiers. We seen time and time again that he not very good commanding citizens, remember what he did to Kelly to her in line? In his mind, he need people to follow orders, but when it come to grand plan of keep a whole group people alive beside teach them fight it hard for him to manage. Allow a citizen to manage everything beside military matters I think is the best for him. Lest we forget that he hasn't been a great people person and he still not seen under a good light by the colony. When it come to Tanya and Saul, those are his soldiers and he will fight tooth and nail for his troops and his group.

Witch_Doctor
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:47 AM
Redshirt, they still will need primers. I do not know how universal those are or if there is a standard big rifle primer.

Ha!!! I thought you meant primers for us to follow Redshirt's science journal-worthy posts.

Witch_Doctor
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:51 AM
Every morning I think people "like" me with like alerts.

love the sgu, that piece on ppmo's was really interesting....shit I'd love to get a novella bros take on whats happening in this story. People think WE post over-the-top craziness...

I want them to do a piece on their show about We're Alive. The science in WA will be off the Prometheus Scale for sure.

scbubba
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:52 AM
Ha!!! I thought you meant primers for us to follow Redshirt's science journal-worthy posts.

We definitely need those!!!! :D

scbubba
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:54 AM
We are the hive, eh bubba etal :)

Speaking of hive. All through out history humans have thought ants kick ass. How cool would it be to have an ant army? Achilles was a kick ass warrior in an of himself, but he led the Myrmidons. They were the greatest Warrior people because they are descended from ants. Even the name is ant people or ant nest.

So, my point on a Friday is to reinforce we are the hive.

You said it, bro!

I never knew that about the Myrmidon name. I always thought that they might not have been mortals. Maybe Hellenistic Little Ones?

UndeadSweeper
Nov 1st, 2013, 08:05 AM
Ha!!! I thought you meant primers for us to follow Redshirt's science journal-worthy posts.

I saw the word primer, and thought he meant that the red shirts on the show need a new coat of paint since not enough of them are dying.

scbubba
Nov 1st, 2013, 08:09 AM
Shotguns would definitely be a decent choice for normal biters. They seem very, well, fragile compared to the tuff skinned ones. Shotguns provide a lot of improvisational opportunities for...

Unit
Nov 1st, 2013, 10:47 AM
Here is an awesome article I remembered reading a while back about groups in Africa creating their own shotguns and shotgun shells and using caps from kids cap guns as the primer. In reality you can...

7oddisdead
Nov 1st, 2013, 12:07 PM
We are the hive, eh bubba etal :)

Speaking of hive. All through out history humans have thought ants kick ass. How cool would it be to have an ant army? Achilles was a kick ass warrior in an of himself, but he led the Myrmidons. They were the greatest Warrior people because they are descended from ants. Even the name is ant people or ant nest.

So, my point on a Friday is to reinforce we are the hive.


*wwwwiiiiiinnnkkkk*

Footbutt
Nov 1st, 2013, 12:37 PM
okay, so slight COMBOBREAKER.... (if i'm using that in context)

going back to the Tanya and Saul being 'infected'...
with all of the medical diagnostics/equipment that they have at the Colony/Dunbar/Tanya's Morgue, what is the likelihood of the Research Team going back to the Hospital for a restock/supply run/use of equipment needs?
i still feel the Hospital will have a role in the coming chapters. if it isn't TOWTM's base-o-operations, is it still in use?

Cabbage Patch
Nov 1st, 2013, 12:52 PM
Here's my 2¢ worth on some of the weapons and ammo related questions.

It's important to realize that our heroes don't need major amounts of ammo; one lucky find could easily provide them with everything they need for years to come. Consider that, at most, the humans can field 1) 2 50 caliber machineguns, 2) 1 Minigun, 3) 1-2 SAWs, 4) 10-15 scoped rifles (the old Guardians weapons) and 5) maybe 50 M-16s. Key calibers are 50 cal, 7.62mm, 5.56mm, and 9mm for military/police pistols and submachineguns. 100,000 rounds of ammo would refill their ammo bunkers to overflowing.

I've seen one Army cargo truck, half-loaded, deliver 500,000 rounds of mixed ammo to a range; fully loaded that one truck could have carried over a million rounds in it. My old company's ammo bunker had over 1 million rounds of small arms in it, and as a bonus it also had land mines, hand grenades, C-4 and anti-tank rockets in it. A single cargo container, enroute to Iraq of Afghanistan through an LA port could have 10 million rounds of ammo in it.


...So the military locations. Other than the base that Michael mentioned (Navy base, right) and the National Guard base (which has long since been empties), we don't know the state of any other potential military supply locations. I'm guessing that Michael and Co haven't made a visit to any of these military locations in Season 4 but I wonder what they might find if they did...

There is a lot of potential for scavanging for ammo around LA. Among military bases there is the Long Beach Navy Base (which exists only in the WA Universe, the real one closed in the 90s), there is the large National Guard base at Los Alamitos and there are at least a dozen armories like the one in Bell. Further afield there are major Marine Bases at Twentynine Palms and Camp Pendelton, major navy installations all around San Diego and a half-dozen military air bases. There are also major container ports at San Pedro and Long Beach.


...As for access to reloading supplies, powder might be the easiest of the materials to come up with. Brass could be in decent supply depending on how much of their own they have saved. The primers are going to be the kicker there. During this year's ammo shortage, primers were one of the 1st reloading materials that I saw go into short supply. And given Cali's general low ownership of firearms (compared to most of the rest of the US) I would think that the general availability of primers would be really low in May 2009 in LA....

Let's not forget the problem of getting lead for bullets. You can make bullets out of brass or steel, but it's a lot harder than doing so from lead. These days lead isn't used for much except for making bullets, and over the last ten years most of the US lead smelting foundaries closed (the last one in the US closed just last month). For years most of the lead used for making commercial ammo has been imported from China. Once the stocks on store shelves is gone, the supply is gone.


...To the best of my knowledge, the US military doesn't do much if any reloading (Cabbage Patch, any info on this?) so I would think that there wouldn't be a supply of primers for any caliber available at any of the military locations...

As far as I know the US Military doesn't do any re-loading. Spent brass is shipped back to the ammo plants, where it is melted down and recast into new shell casings.


...Here is an awesome article I remembered reading a while back about groups in Africa creating their own shotguns and shotgun shells and using caps from kids cap guns as the primer. In reality you can use anything that makes a spark as a primer. Works good enough for a single or double barrel type shotgun, but I don't think I would trust it in anything where the ammo is 'moving' like a semiauto or pump gun...

It's amazing what a skilled craftsman can do! In places like Afghanistan and the Philippines there are people who can build you a workable copy of a Lee-Enfield rifle or a Colt 45 Automatic out of scrap metal, using just hand tools, and without electricity. The guns they make aren't pretty, they are heavier than the originals and I would be nervous about firing one myself, but they work. Given all of his advantages, Datu could probably build even better weapons if they were needed.

Witch_Doctor
Nov 1st, 2013, 02:34 PM
okay, so slight COMBOBREAKER.... (if i'm using that in context)

going back to the Tanya and Saul being 'infected'...
with all of the medical diagnostics/equipment that they have at the Colony/Dunbar/Tanya's Morgue, what is the likelihood of the Research Team going back to the Hospital for a restock/supply run/use of equipment needs?
i still feel the Hospital will have a role in the coming chapters. if it isn't TOWTM's base-o-operations, is it still in use?

I wouldn't be surprised if they already have been to some hospital or another. The Colony's hospital is a converted office building but the sound effects indicate that they have some sophisticated equipment. But, yeah, I, too, seriously doubt that we've seen the last of the hospital. Riley told Tanya about the Cain Mental Hospital. Of the four people who saw TOWTM there, only two are alive and they are both together, Riley and Burt. The 'ah ha' moment might come from a revelation from the journal accounts or Tanya's recollection. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

She might send someone there to retrieve more antibiotics (if they are still potent).

scbubba
Nov 1st, 2013, 07:17 PM
Here's my 2¢ worth on some of the weapons and ammo related questions.

It's important to realize that our heroes don't need major amounts of ammo; one lucky find could easily provide them with everything they need for years to come. Consider that, at most, the humans can field 1) 2 50 caliber machineguns, 2) 1 Minigun, 3) 1-2 SAWs, 4) 10-15 scoped rifles (the old Guardians weapons) and 5) maybe 50 M-16s. Key calibers are 50 cal, 7.62mm, 5.56mm, and 9mm for military/police pistols and submachineguns. 100,000 rounds of ammo would refill their ammo bunkers to overflowing.

I've seen one Army cargo truck, half-loaded, deliver 500,000 rounds of mixed ammo to a range; fully loaded that one truck could have carried over a million rounds in it. My old company's ammo bunker had over 1 million rounds of small arms in it, and as a bonus it also had land mines, hand grenades, C-4 and anti-tank rockets in it. A single cargo container, enroute to Iraq of Afghanistan through an LA port could have 10 million rounds of ammo in it.

Damn fine point about the quantity of ammo they might need and might be able to find. If everybody on the Colony/Dunbar Team were to fire at will in a firefight, I'm guessing the number of rounds used would be a few thousand (add another thousand for extra minigun action.)


There is a lot of potential for scavanging for ammo around LA. Among military bases there is the Long Beach Navy Base (which exists only in the WA Universe, the real one closed in the 90s), there is the large National Guard base at Los Alamitos and there are at least a dozen armories like the one in Bell. Further afield there are major Marine Bases at Twentynine Palms and Camp Pendelton, major navy installations all around San Diego and a half-dozen military air bases. There are also major container ports at San Pedro and Long Beach.

I didn't realize how many different bases/facilities were in the greater LA area. That's quite a bit of scavenging fodder. Thanks for the info.


Let's not forget the problem of getting lead for bullets. You can make bullets out of brass or steel, but it's a lot harder than doing so from lead. These days lead isn't used for much except for making bullets, and over the last ten years most of the US lead smelting foundaries closed (the last one in the US closed just last month). For years most of the lead used for making commercial ammo has been imported from China. Once the stocks on store shelves is gone, the supply is gone.

As far as I know the US Military doesn't do any re-loading. Spent brass is shipped back to the ammo plants, where it is melted down and recast into new shell casings.
Yeah, the lead would be hard to come by and is the easiest to cast reliably into bullets. Other available metals could be used but would require more time/energy to cast properly and the harder ones would eat the hell out of the barrels in short order.

So, short of finding a couple of bunkers, conventional firearms are probably going to play less of a role in general. Improvised projectile launchers, like the Mata-gun, would be needed sooner rather than later.

It's amazing what a skilled craftsman can do! In places like Afghanistan and the Philippines there are people who can build you a workable copy of a Lee-Enfield rifle or a Colt 45 Automatic out of scrap metal, using just hand tools, and without electricity. The guns they make aren't pretty, they are heavier than the originals and I would be nervous about firing one myself, but they work. Given all of his advantages, Datu could probably build even better weapons if they were needed.[/QUOTE]

Long Live King Datu, the Resourceful!

Red Shirt
Nov 1st, 2013, 09:56 PM
Redshirt, they still will need primers. I do not know how universal those are or if there is a standard big rifle primer.

:o Right, of course. I just did some quick research and discovered that they do seem to be standardized though (http://www.wideners.com/). One lucky find of a box would go a long way.


love the sgu, that piece on ppmo's was really interesting....shit I'd love to get a novella bros take on whats happening in this story. People think WE post over-the-top craziness...

I get the feeling that there's a possibility that Bob just might be a fan. Having one of the fan podcasts contact him/them might be a good idea.


I wouldn't be surprised if they already have been to some hospital or another. The Colony's hospital is a converted office building but the sound effects indicate that they have some sophisticated equipment. But, yeah, I, too, seriously doubt that we've seen the last of the hospital. Riley told Tanya about the Cain Mental Hospital. Of the four people who saw TOWTM there, only two are alive and they are both together, Riley and Burt. The 'ah ha' moment might come from a revelation from the journal accounts or Tanya's recollection. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

She might send someone there to retrieve more antibiotics (if they are still potent).

I think it is more probable that they have spent their time raiding local clinics and urgent care centers. To hear Riley's second hand description of the first visit and the run to get the chopper in the show... well, to borrow a term from WWZ, the hospital is a dangerous "White Zone."
The shelf life of antibiotics and other medicines presents a whole new issue of its own... One year into the apocalypse and antibiotics are probably starting to expire. Pharmaceuticals will be following suit soon. The problem is with them, they don't just lose potency. The molecule chain can break down into other things that could prove harmful, even fatal to take.



Let's not forget the problem of getting lead for bullets. You can make bullets out of brass or steel, but it's a lot harder than doing so from lead. These days lead isn't used for much except for making bullets, and over the last ten years most of the US lead smelting foundaries closed (the last one in the US closed just last month). For years most of the lead used for making commercial ammo has been imported from China. Once the stocks on store shelves is gone, the supply is gone.

Easier than you think... some re-loaders have been using the lead from tire balancing wheel weights. I read an article ages ago about it and it said that the quality of the lead is remarkable, given the source. Some regions have "gone dry" of wheel weights due to the higher population of shooters and re-loaders, but that shouldn't be an issue in LA. Just go out to any of the the freeways and have at it. While using this lead does present some unique, though small complications, it is better than having none. Here's a more recent article. (http://www.gundigest.com/ammunition-reviews-articles/reloading-handloading-articles-advice/gundigest-09-11-09-wheel-weight-bullets)

I think it might be worth noting here is the ammo compatibility of what they have on hand:

The M16 and the M249 both use the NATO standard 5.56x45 round which is for all intents and purposes the same cartridge as the Remington .223 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington). One tiny exception is that for the 249 is that it also need ammo links. It is possible to relink belts with "raw" ammo, but that is very tedious.
The M60, M240 (should they find any) and the M134 minigun all use the 7.62x51 NATO round which is equivalent to the .308 Winchester (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester). For all three of these, the same issue with linked ammo holds true.
The M9 Beretta and the HK MP5 both use the 9mm NATO round, the 9×19mm Parabellum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum).

Although military supply dumps are probably their best bet, they aren't strictly limited to them. If they come across another Locked 'n' Loaded that hasn't been knocked over yet, they are likely to find ammo compatible with their military firearms.

Unit
Nov 1st, 2013, 10:37 PM
The other factor to consider in the debate over ammo is the time period and what groups have already been ransacking potential ammo locations.

We have the colony that was doing scavenging missions on a regular schedule. With CJ's resources like the swat van full of weapons and ammo we know she must have hit police stations already, and I imagine they must have hit a lot more potential caches as much as they were looking and as creative as she was about being prepared and finding supplies.

You have Michael and the tower out scavenging supplies, much of which went down with the ship when it fell.

You have scratch and the prisoner crew scavenging as well. We know they cleared out most of Locked and Loaded and the rest of the vault at the military base. I am sure they hit most of the other gun shops and bases in the area as well.

We don't know if there are any other groups that were scavenging as well. They may have survived and we just haven't met them yet or they may have been wiped out already but either way any supplies they gathered would no longer be in there original expected locations.

And a lot of time has passed since Z-day. If we are thinking realistically, any military base or firearms shop is likely I be ransacked already at this point.

Merlin1274
Nov 2nd, 2013, 06:39 AM
Datu's Mata Gun..
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=628115100546116

Unit
Nov 2nd, 2013, 05:24 PM
Datu's Mata Gun..
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=628115100546116

Looks like its arts and crafts time at my house haha

:bunker: